JL

Hi

Has anyone here taken training with Harry Nichols?

I'm considering taking DHE training with him and
I'm looking for opinions on him from people who have
trained with him...

UnKaH

DUDE, don't waste your time or money on DHE, it is utter bullshit, but
if you must insist then demand from this guy what you will learn, if he
says unconscious installation, run like hell. Have him tell you, what
you will learn and how it can be applied to every day life. Ask about a
100% money back guarantee, if your not happy with the training, if he
can't guarantee his service then what would that tell you about it? Ask
for e-mails addresses or phone numbers of other students who have
attended his seminars, then call or write and ask them, what they
learned and how they are using it.

If they can't give you a detailed explaination of what they learned and
skills they acquired then it is just of that unconscious installation
bullshit. Do some research on this news groups a 6 months ago, there
was a thread where questions was asked of the folks who attended a DHE
seminar, about what they learned and the skills they acquired and no
answers were forth coming.

DHE is bullshit and they won't refund your money either, unless of
course they changed their policy.

JL

UnKaH wrote:

> DUDE, don't waste your time or money on DHE,

Well, it was nice of you to offer your opinions on
DHE but I am actually not looking for that. I am
looking for opinions on the quality of Harry
Nichols as a DHE trainer.

I have already taken DHE training with Bandler
himself, and it was just superb.

But DHE is very advanced, and I'm not sure whether
I want to spend money on taking DHE training with
anyone else than Bandler. On the other hand DHE is
more useful than everything else in the NLP field,
so I'm considering taking a chance with Nichols'
training anyway.

So, if anyone here knows anything about the quality
of Nichols' DHE trainings (compared to Bandler,
LaValle, Darnell etc), I'm eager to hear about
it...

UnKaH

Well then, prey tell, what did you learn in your DHE seminar with
Bandler? What new skills did you come away with?

Greg Alexander

Hi JL,
It's good to see someone here who can say something in support of DHE,
in a thread 6 months ago there was lots of criticism but it was mostly
second hand information.

Sorry I can't tell you anything about Harry Nichols, or DHE.
If you can share some of your DHE experiences and how you think it fits
with NLP I'd appreciate it. (perhaps in a different thread? so others
may answer your Harry Nichols question).

Thanks,
Greg

JL

UnKaH skrev:

> Well then, prey tell, what did you learn in your DHE seminar with
> Bandler? What new skills did you come away with?

It is a bit bizarre that you think that I'm here to
educate you on DHE, or try to convince you to take DHE
training. Whether you get the DHE learnings or not UnKaH
is of supreme unimportance to me, sorry.

I'm very well versed in the different genres of NLP,
including those that claim not to be NLP. DHE is the
best technology as far as I can tell. However, if you
don't want to take DHE training UnKaH, then don't.

JL

UnKaH skrev:

> Well then, prey tell, what did you learn in your DHE seminar with
> Bandler? What new skills did you come away with?

It is a bit bizarre that you think that I'm here to
educate you on DHE, or try to convince you to take DHE
training. Whether you get the DHE learnings or not UnKaH
is of supreme unimportance to me, sorry.

I'm very well versed in the different genres of NLP,
including those that claim not to be NLP. DHE is the
best technology as far as I can tell. However, if you
don't want to take DHE training UnKaH, then don't.

JL

Hi Greg,

>in a thread 6 months ago there was lots of criticism but it was mostly
>second hand information.

I can imagine... This place is primarily a marketing ground where
the different NLP camps bash each other in order to get more seminar
participants. Not really a good place to find info, more of a last
resort really. On the other hand, the childish bickering between the
camps really is an endless source of comedy, ha ha.

>If you can share some of your DHE experiences and how you think it fits
>with NLP I'd appreciate it.

Well, I'm not trying to sell DHE so I don't want to incite a new DHE
fight.
If I would start explaining, there would be a new row of endless
bickering
and stupidity from people who want to compete for NLP customers. So,
this is not really a place for unpartial discussion.

But I can give you one serious recommendation: only take DHE training
if you have taken *at least* 2 full courses with Bandler before. The
more
advanced student you are, the more value you will get from it. It is
really
not a good place to start for a newbie.

And one more thing btw: f**k the gimmicks (hypnotic binoculars etc).
That is NOT where the value is in DHE.

UnKaH

Well then fill us in, where is the value in DHE? Inquiring minds want
to know

UnKaH

So here we go again, someone who has been to a DHE with Bandler and yet
again can't educate us in what he has learned or what skills he has
picked up as a result. Why would you again have to repeat the seminar
if it was so spectacular.
Could be the same scenario of the last bunch. They went, spent their
money, got nothing but are to ashamed to admit it.

Other wise you could tell us what value there is in DHE. Frankly I
really don't care if you wish to continue to throw away your money, it
is after all YOUR MONEY, which would be better spent on crack and
hookers. So far again all the DHE'ers has dodged the question, what
value is there in DHE, yet not one single person has come forth and
said told us. More added evidence that DHE is nothing more than
bullshit. Now I'm betting you'll come back calling me names and yadda
yadda yadda, but severe lack of evidence only provides evidence that
there was nothing there in the first place. I only asked a question and
you only succeeded in dodging it.

Nick Kemp

I did the DHE seminar and have found it extremely useful in both
corporate and personal development group work! I also have the DHE
audio material, which IMO are no substitute for a live training.
However I would only recommend Richard and John for DHE training.



Regards

Nick Kemp
www.nickkemp.com

Nic

Nick Kemp wrote:
> I did the DHE seminar and have found it extremely useful in both
> corporate and personal development group work! I also have the DHE
> audio material, which IMO are no substitute for a live training.
> However I would only recommend Richard and John for DHE training.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Nick Kemp
> www.nickkemp.com
>
Useful how, specifically?

Nick Kemp

Happy to respond privately, but not interested in "the punch and judy
interactions" that appear here!

Regards

Nick

Tom Vizzini

"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfe9n7$dmt$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Nick Kemp wrote:
> > I did the DHE seminar and have found it extremely useful in both
> > corporate and personal development group work! I also have the DHE
> > audio material, which IMO are no substitute for a live training.
> > However I would only recommend Richard and John for DHE training.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Nick Kemp
> > www.nickkemp.com
> >
> Useful how, specifically?


That is the question that never gets answered. It can't be becuase I submit
that there is not answer.

Some poeple get there heads so far up Bandler's ass that they are VERY
invested in their belief that they got " somthing".

I was there. I can tell you specifically what the DHE training was.

3 days of basic NLP taught by Level 2 DHE students. Most of which was taught
incorrectly. If not for our previous training we would have missed the
mistakes.

1/2 day of parlor tricks like a hologram and night vision goggles whith the
intent of building these things without needing the actual tools. This never
worked

1/2 day of a decription of the DHE machine which was nothing more than an
auditory anchors. What we saw was an auditory anchor chain but anyone not
familiar would have never seen that.

The good decision machine ate the bad decision machine. There was not a
description of how this happened.

1/2 day of people milling around and anothe half a day of chaos of getting
the commands recorded onto mini disks.

Mixed with this were a few hours a day of Bandler spinning metaphors but
never teaching any content.

The whole timeI was left asking myself where the magic was? Where was the
new content?

Nick and others cannot answer the questions with anything other than a vague
and stragely familiar phrase..building a better machine.

The flaw in the whole premise is that people are not machines nor are they
computers.

I was left feeling that I wasted a week of my life. It was a long drawn out
seminar designed to do only one thing. Market something to people who
already love Bandler and would accept anything he suggested without
question.

One guy walked around bumping into things for 3 days after Bandler told him
that his eyes were healed and to not wear glasses. After a few days he
resorted to wearing his glasses again outside the seminar.

What we are seeing here are those people who have tied all there marketing
to the idea that they are Bandler NLP practitioners. Others have spent
thousands of dollars on seevral trainings and are emotionally attachted to
that decision. Other like Nick get some NLPrestige by assisting in seminars.
His site leans very heavily on NLP as the marketing tool that selling his
stuff.

I had all the expectations of DHE being something real special. Instead I
saw something even less effective that regular NLP.

BTW in the whoel 6 days of training we never did get a solid definition of
what DHE was.

Tom

Tom Vizzini

"Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125852749.501751.43470@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
> Happy to respond privately, but not interested in "the punch and judy
> interactions" that appear here!


Damn shame Nick. Given the opportunity to finally clear up all the
misunderstandings with one clear definition on DHE to put all the critics in
their place....you retreat to private emails so that whatever explaination
you give does not get examined.

This does not make DHE look good at all.

But what do I know. I am just a guy who is a poor presenter that still is
able to get results. I also can easily define what we are teaching...if a
slacker like me can define what we teach I wonder why someone as fantastic
as Bandler cannot.

Tom

JL

UnKaH wrote:

> So here we go again, someone who has been to a DHE with Bandler and yet
> again can't educate us

Yeah UnKaH, please go ahead and believe that, ha ha.
You really are too fuckin' funny, UnKaH.

Here's the deal - again: whether YOU understand DHE
or not UnKaH is totally unimportant. If you think I'm
compelled to "defend" DHE or explain to you the usefulness
of DHE, then you are sadly mistaken. I don't give a sh*t.
Bicker and whine all you like, UnKaH. It's your life,
and if you don't want DHE skills then that's actually
*funny* to me. So, thanks for the laughs, mate :-D


I use tools and methods from all NLP genres, and when
I think about which ones are the best, DHE comes out
on top, in front of some other very useful tools and
systems like NHR and 3DM that I also frequently use.

And my NLP motto is: F*ck the NLP politics. I use the
best tools & methods from ALL the important NLP camps,
and I'm not affiliated with ANY camp.

JL

Hey Nick

Thanks for the reply.

I concur that the DHE tape sets are no substitute
for the live training. Not even close, IMO.

Btw, you only recommend Richard & John. Have
you got any experience with any of the other ones,
like Harry Nichols or Lenny Darnell? I find it quite
hard to find unbiased info on these trainers...

UnKaH

Thank you again for showing us your nothing more than another deluded
moron who belives the Bullshit Bandler spews, so how many training have
you atteneded to get enlightened? and yet still want to go to more?
What wasn't the first time around good enough, you keep saying you got
something yet, you fall yet in line with the other morons who say the
same thing, yet can't explain jack shit because you and they, don't
have a clue. So go ahead and laugh, and laugh again and again but
Bandler is the only one laughing, all the way to the bank. With your
money.

My NLP Motto is, expose the Bullshit. So my conversations with you are
over, you've proved once again that those with DHE didn't get anything,
unless it was a self deluded belief being fullfilled. Your answers
count as zero, so far you DHE folks are looking really bad.

This NG is supposed to be about sharing, so far you DHE people have
shared nothing about DHE, you haven't a clue because you got nothing,
won't share it, yet you defend it..DUH.

By the same token and methods you use, I could say I talked to God and
he enlightened me about everything, I know all answers to everything no
matter what the subject is, but sorry I can't share with you because,
well pick your reason.

So by not sharing your views and learnings basically what your saying
is your one selfish son of a bitch, right on brother, right on, that's
the way to keep people depended upon you.

UnKaH

Just more of the blind leading the blind.

JL

UnKaH wrote:

>My NLP Motto is, expose the Bullshit.

Yeah, I can see that UnKaH, since you are exposing your
own bullshit in avid detail here.

NONE of your replies have been on the actual topic here:
whether Harry Nichols is a good DHE trainer or not.

All you have offered here UnKaH is an endless row of pointless
bickering, bashing and whining. In the end, I'm just a satisfied
DHE customer and practitioner, a fact which obviously drives
you nuts UnKaH, especially since I'm not interested in your
tired old "bash the trainer"-routines.

JL

Another fine example of how UnKaH lives up to his
NLP motto and exposes his own bullshit.

Nick Kemp

I have not trained with Lenny or Harry.

dca

UnKaH what is your purpose in this forum? I can't be sure but it seems as if
you have nothing constructive to say or offer and there seems to be a real
attempt on your part to discredit everything and everyone.
Now I am new to this forum and hope to learn a great deal but I find the
tone of your posts to be, well acidic. Am I wrong - are you a seeker of
knowledge or a belligerent?

Curious.

"UnKaH" <monsterbaby@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1125722059.460778.40570@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
> Well then, prey tell, what did you learn in your DHE seminar with
> Bandler? What new skills did you come away with?
>

UnKaH

Ahhh, now I get it, your another trainer disguised as someone else,
good job on the cover up, all I asked was a question, which you
couldn't answer like all the other satisfied DHE customers, you think
you got something but what you got was fucked and your just to fucking
stupid to realize that, since you can't answer the simple questions,
like that other stupid fucker, zulu someone, you resort to name calling
and call for banning, wow good job buster. What is tired is dumbass's
like you perpetuating DHE, yet can't tell anyone what it is actually
about, and what have you offered? The shame falls on you and your ilk.
Your a practioner of DHE yet can't provide a simple explanation and
want to take more training's for DHE, why? Didn't you get it the first
time? Why do people have to attend over and over again? For someone who
writes as if they were smart, your a simpleton, you brought the
bullshit and now your defending the bullshit which you can't even
explain. I'm sorry you stupid, maybe you can build a brand new machine
to detect bullshit, but then again it would go off the scales when DHE
is introduced to it wouldn't it?

UnKaH

Both, but since you ask maybe you can ask the question and get an
honest answer about DHE instead of all the misdirecting and name
callings. I asked a question about the new code NLP, all he basically
said was calibrating to muscle tension and unconscious response.

The other fellow I asked some questions about that Zulu guy, when I
asked for his qualifications he got out raged. If you want to believe
them be my guest and watch your money go down the toilet with nothing
in return, if your not willing to ask hard questions then your willing
to be easily swayed by this DHE crap. They depend on people like you
not to ask questions, that is how they get their money, by posting ads
which they can never full fill.
Your money, be a smart and informed shopper.

UnKaH

The DHE cd's, which I listened to were enough for me to know, there was
nothing there, they are indeed live recording of the DHE seminars, what
was different in the cd's than the actual event? If you don't get even
a scrap of learning something from the Cd's, how can a DHE seminar be
any different, Look at the post that Tom Vizzini wrote, he was there at
an actual DHE seminar. So were a few other people I know and they said
the same thing. If you continually refuse to see what is actually there
as opposed to what you think is there, you will continually be deluded
which you obviously are.

So Nick since your are part of the DHE training team, you should be
able to tell us what DHE is really all about.

UnKaH

Why privately Nick? That is a pretty poor excuse you know. If you can
defend DHE with some facts, please present them.

Maybe your afraid that Joe and Myron might show up again, to deliver
yet another proverbial ass kicking?

If you don't want to explain DHE and back it with some facts, I
understand because you can't pull facts out of your ass right?

If you can't seem to explain something then what? That something either
doesn't exist or your a liar, which one is it?
Or will you now run away? Because in the face of being exposed you have
no other options but to run away or start some name calling there by
redirecting people away from the facts of DHE to yet another flame war.

Greg Alexander

UnKaH wrote:
> I asked a question about the new code NLP, all he basically
> said was calibrating to muscle tension and unconscious response.

You must've missed the part about recoding earlier patterns to ensure
that what makes a pattern effective is included - this would seem
significant. Along with separating patterns from content and other
things. (I didn't mention it, though there is also a focus on
modelling.)

You are right that the use of unconscious responses and better
calibration (whether muscle tension or through the many other signals)
is part of all this. It's certainly a good start.

Of course how you read this will depend on your own questions - ask if
you like (perhaps in the New Code thread?)

(http://nlp.com.au/new_code_nlp.htm may also be of interest!)

dca

I'm sorry I don't know how my POST managed to evoke such a violent response.
I have yet to read about DHE and I am not a TRAINER. I am amazed at the
language you use. Is this that "shock" approach I've read about or is it
blatant abuse - I can't be sure.
I don't recall raising shame as an issue - in fact I had to re-read my POST
to see what I had said and yes, I think my question was a simply asked
question - why are you so worked up? Seem very defensive indeed. Is this
your teaching approach?
- Dumb founded.


"UnKaH" <monsterbaby@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1125970534.290619.157340@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
> Ahhh, now I get it, your another trainer disguised as someone else,
> good job on the cover up, all I asked was a question, which you
> couldn't answer like all the other satisfied DHE customers, you think
> you got something but what you got was fucked and your just to fucking
> stupid to realize that, since you can't answer the simple questions,
> like that other stupid fucker, zulu someone, you resort to name calling
> and call for banning, wow good job buster. What is tired is dumbass's
> like you perpetuating DHE, yet can't tell anyone what it is actually
> about, and what have you offered? The shame falls on you and your ilk.
> Your a practioner of DHE yet can't provide a simple explanation and
> want to take more training's for DHE, why? Didn't you get it the first
> time? Why do people have to attend over and over again? For someone who
> writes as if they were smart, your a simpleton, you brought the
> bullshit and now your defending the bullshit which you can't even
> explain. I'm sorry you stupid, maybe you can build a brand new machine
> to detect bullshit, but then again it would go off the scales when DHE
> is introduced to it wouldn't it?
>

dca

Why is everybody trying to defend or justify their domain? My understanding
has been that its the difference that makes the difference - surely
whatever works for a client is good - I am amazed at this professional
jealousy and find it disconcerting that it evokes the type of unintelligible
response laced with extreme profanities.
- I am shell shocked.


"UnKaH" <monsterbaby@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1125972117.513210.34770@g49g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> Why privately Nick? That is a pretty poor excuse you know. If you can
> defend DHE with some facts, please present them.
>
> Maybe your afraid that Joe and Myron might show up again, to deliver
> yet another proverbial ass kicking?
>
> If you don't want to explain DHE and back it with some facts, I
> understand because you can't pull facts out of your ass right?
>
> If you can't seem to explain something then what? That something either
> doesn't exist or your a liar, which one is it?
> Or will you now run away? Because in the face of being exposed you have
> no other options but to run away or start some name calling there by
> redirecting people away from the facts of DHE to yet another flame war.
>

Nick Kemp

Many who used to post here departed for this exact same reason....

Regards


Nick Kemp
www.tranceformingnlp.com

dca

really not surprised.
there is a well of information here - the purpose of good forums - such a
pity that there are such aggressive elements.

"Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125994941.795323.277190@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> Many who used to post here departed for this exact same reason....
>
> Regards
>
>
> Nick Kemp
> www.tranceformingnlp.com
>

Nic

dca wrote:
> really not surprised.
> there is a well of information here - the purpose of good forums - such a
> pity that there are such aggressive elements.
>
> "Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1125994941.795323.277190@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
>
>>Many who used to post here departed for this exact same reason....
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>
>>Nick Kemp
>>www.tranceformingnlp.com
>>
>
>
>
The fault is not one way though. Many people made statements in this
forum which when challenged in a reasonable way, they refused to answer
or became very evasive. I lose track, for example, of the number of
times those extolling the virtues of DHE, certain NLP practices etc were
asked to substantiate their claims. They never do. For example,
recently, Nick Kemp made a sweeping generalisation that DHE is
beneficial to him. When asked to be specific about those benefits, he
refused, offering to e-mail his views (which he has not done) rather
than post them here. Nick is not the only person by a long way to do
this, just the most recent example that comes to mind.

It is not surprising that when someone who is prominent in NLP in the UK
makes a generalisation (meta-model violation) and is asked to be
specific and refuses, that others become frustrated.

I thought that this forum was for the exchanging of information and
experiences about NLP; it appears that many people use this as a shop
front for their courses but are unwilling to share
knowledge/information. At least the 3D Mind crew share their knowledge
here. If NLP trainers/practitioners were to do the same, the site would
be more useful to the community and frustration levels would decrease.

Nic

dca wrote:

> Why is everybody trying to defend or justify their domain? My understanding
> has been that its the difference that makes the difference - surely
> whatever works for a client is good - I am amazed at this professional
> jealousy and find it disconcerting that it evokes the type of unintelligible
> response laced with extreme profanities.
> - I am shell shocked.
>

Several times, DHE supporters have been asked to specify what they got
from their training - nobody has answered. It is not professional
jealousy that leads to a lot of the frustration (unless you are applying
that term to yourself). It is people becoming frustrated that questions
asked in good faith are not answered. For example, in teh absence of any
specific information about benefits obtained from DHE, how can anyone
who is interested in attending a course make a decision.

At the moment, the only person to have given a detailed explanation fo
their experiences on a DHE course is Tom, who listed why in his opinion
it's a waste of time. Nobody who has found DHE to be beneficial has
posted with their experiences. Should we conclude therefore that it is
of no benefit?

Nic

Or is the silence a reflection that the only benefit to be derived from
DHE is a financial one on the part of the trainers who, wishing to
protect their revenue stream, do not wish to expose the emperor's new
clothes?

dca

I have no idea about this; whether its an attempt to protect income streams
or not. I see this FORUM, alt.psychology.nlp to be a forum for the exchange
of ideas not the defence of one over another. I am compelled now to go and
read up about DHE because I have no knowledge of it and it seems to be the
root of some serious contentions. Seems that this forum is a boxing ring for
DHE vs. 3D and I thought 3D was an animation company - still more to learn.
But I must say that 3D seem to put forward a very aggressive perception and
I would be hard pressed to value their comments just because of the tone of
their mailing - however I am new to this forum and obviously do not know the
histrionics of the personae.

still remains quite unfortunate that people need to attack each other.

"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfjphv$st5$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Or is the silence a reflection that the only benefit to be derived from
> DHE is a financial one on the part of the trainers who, wishing to protect
> their revenue stream, do not wish to expose the emperor's new clothes?

dca

I would agree that where reasonable questions are asked answers should be
forthcoming. But the attitude that permeates through......


"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfjp9d$iii$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> dca wrote:
>
>> Why is everybody trying to defend or justify their domain? My
>> understanding has been that its the difference that makes the
>> difference - surely whatever works for a client is good - I am amazed at
>> this professional jealousy and find it disconcerting that it evokes the
>> type of unintelligible response laced with extreme profanities.
>> - I am shell shocked.
>>
>
> Several times, DHE supporters have been asked to specify what they got
> from their training - nobody has answered. It is not professional jealousy
> that leads to a lot of the frustration (unless you are applying that term
> to yourself). It is people becoming frustrated that questions asked in
> good faith are not answered. For example, in teh absence of any specific
> information about benefits obtained from DHE, how can anyone who is
> interested in attending a course make a decision.
>
> At the moment, the only person to have given a detailed explanation fo
> their experiences on a DHE course is Tom, who listed why in his opinion
> it's a waste of time. Nobody who has found DHE to be beneficial has posted
> with their experiences. Should we conclude therefore that it is of no
> benefit?

Nick Kemp

If anyone is really interested then please e-mail me, if not then don't
bother!


lol


Nick Kemp
www.nlpmp3.com
(Free resource for NLP trainers and others to communicate opinions in
unedited interview format)

dca

there's that attitude....


"Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126004335.271175.91130@g49g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> If anyone is really interested then please e-mail me, if not then don't
> bother!
>
>
> lol
>
>
> Nick Kemp
> www.nlpmp3.com
> (Free resource for NLP trainers and others to communicate opinions in
> unedited interview format)
>

Greg Alexander

Hi dca and Nic,

The group has a lot of marketing, fud, and attacks.

It also has people with questions, ability, and ideas - and often it's
the same people. Unfortunately much of the good discussion gets lost in
the rest, and many people have gone elsewhere.

There actually hasn't been that much written on DHE recently. I haven't
heard a proponent of DHE here before, just a few people who had done
some training but found another facet of NLP more to their liking.
Hearing what DHE doesn't do is not as useful as hearing from both a
supporter and detractor... though ideally we'd try some patterns out
ourselves!

3Dmind has quite a few supporters here. They advertise alot, and give
enough information to gain interest, but nothing specific enough to try
a pattern. I assume that's because Tom would lose his income if it's as
easy as he says and he published a pattern here - so that's fair
enough.

Welcome to the group - despite the problems. Personally I'm here from
time to time to learn and help build something good of this group, for
myself and others. If you ever think I'm avoiding an answer call me on
it (especially if you think I don't realise!)

Greg

Dirk Bansch

I like Harry. He is certainly a good NLP trainer and has great
calibration skills. He also seems to do less politicking than some
other NLP trainers. Harry is the guy who has recorded "The Adventures
of Anybody", so you can at least listen to his voice before making a
decision.

Best wishes,
Dirk Bansch
www.bronze-dragon.com
NLP Prac in York: Oct 22-28
NLP Master Prac: Dec 3-11

Tom Vizzini

"Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125994941.795323.277190@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> Many who used to post here departed for this exact same reason....

Oh you mean cowardice?

Look Nick. If you refuse to answer the questions here then run back to the
safety of the Yahoo group where you will not be challenged.

Here is the real reason you refuse to answer....there is no answer. You
can't define what does not exist.

In this thread there has been no abuse nor flames. Honest questions have
been asked and your evasion is the answer we have gotten.

I think that speaks louder than anything.

Tom Vizzini

I didn't want this DHE discussion to turn into a 'us vs them' debate but
since it has let me explain one very clear difference. If you go to

http://essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043

You will get a very detailed explaination of the 3D mind and what it is
about.
When you read this site , http://essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
, You get all the presuppositions, explaination and RESULTS that the 3D Mind
Model has to offer. Add to that real people's testimonial. People who are
not trainers but just ordinary people who have gotten results without $15000
worth of 3 levels of NLP training.

You will find that DHE has no such explaination anywhere.

With DHE you get vague references to results but no specific results OR how
they were attained.

Just one difference can make all the difference.

Tom
www.essential-skills.com

Nick Kemp

There could of course be many reasons not to reply here, but in my case
its that from what I have witnessed on this specific ng is that most
have alreday made up their minds about DHE without even having attended
an event! The endless punch and judy show about 3D Mind and DHE is IMO
very dull, just that. There is also in many cases an implicit
assumption that people *have to* contribute an opinion or *have to
explain* their take on things, which of course is entirely up to each
individual in question. No single system will appeal to everyone or be
of use to every single person! I know its a small point but this is an
NLP ng, so why not discuss NLP as opposed to 3D Mind and DHE? BTW I
have a set of 3D Mind videos.

Have fun

lol

Nick

Nick Kemp

I have the CDs and the voice is good. Have you actually trainer with
him and if so in what capacity?

Tom Vizzini

"Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126013479.143880.20450@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com...
> There could of course be many reasons not to reply here, but in my case
> its that from what I have witnessed on this specific ng is that most
> have alreday made up their minds about DHE without even having attended
> an event!

That ducks the question.

The endless punch and judy show about 3D Mind and DHE is IMO
> very dull, just that.

Another evasion? Come on Nick. These should be easy questions to answer.

There is also in many cases an implicit
> assumption that people *have to* contribute an opinion or *have to
> explain* their take on things, which of course is entirely up to each
> individual in question.

Of course it is...and refusing to back up an opinion also makes a statement.

Here is the thing. Like me or not here I am. I answer all questions and make
no excuses. I do not run and hide like other people do.


No single system will appeal to everyone or be
> of use to every single person!

Now there is a very limiting belief.

I know its a small point but this is an
> NLP ng, so why not discuss NLP as opposed to 3D Mind and DHE?

Ahhh.....now in order to remain safe we should blindfiold ourselves to
anything other than what Nick wants to talk about. DHE is NLP. I think it is
a valid NLP subject. 3D Mind is going to be compared since so many NLPers
have used it.

BTW I
> have a set of 3D Mind videos.

Yes I know and I saw your opinion of them. Lousy production and hard to
follow or something like that...YET......THOUSANDS of people have easily
been able to change their lives with i. Many who have endlessly tried to use
NLP with ZERO results. So again maybe it is your limitation or previous
investment in NLP that clouds your brain.

Bottom line is this. The run and hide approach to DHE tell us all alot
about it. I was there and I know. The question is what the definition of DHE
is and what measurable results has DHE produced.

Damn shame......This makes NLP look more and more like a scam every time I
see behavior like Nick's.

Hey Nick maybe you should call for the banning of our siter as well.

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

dca

seems to me, as a new kid on the block, that the Essential Skills guys jump
at the opportunity to lambaste NLP.
I agree with the comment that this is an NLP NG.
Surely if people wanted to challenge, contest or argue NLP they should set
up a NG headed everythingbutNLP or some such?
I would expect to find constructive learning in a NG like this. Not ongoing
contests.
Its almost like going to the Reference Section of a Library, and looking in
the MODERN ART SECTION for everything to do with MOTOR MECHANICS and then
ripping into the Librarian because the offerings they have in the section I
was looking for the information I wanted was USELESS.....


"Tom Vizzini" <Tom@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:YYCdnWnS99HmM4DeRVn-qQ@adelphia.com...
>
> "Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1126013479.143880.20450@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com...
>> There could of course be many reasons not to reply here, but in my case
>> its that from what I have witnessed on this specific ng is that most
>> have alreday made up their minds about DHE without even having attended
>> an event!
>
> That ducks the question.
>
> The endless punch and judy show about 3D Mind and DHE is IMO
>> very dull, just that.
>
> Another evasion? Come on Nick. These should be easy questions to answer.
>
> There is also in many cases an implicit
>> assumption that people *have to* contribute an opinion or *have to
>> explain* their take on things, which of course is entirely up to each
>> individual in question.
>
> Of course it is...and refusing to back up an opinion also makes a
> statement.
>
> Here is the thing. Like me or not here I am. I answer all questions and
> make
> no excuses. I do not run and hide like other people do.
>
>
> No single system will appeal to everyone or be
>> of use to every single person!
>
> Now there is a very limiting belief.
>
> I know its a small point but this is an
>> NLP ng, so why not discuss NLP as opposed to 3D Mind and DHE?
>
> Ahhh.....now in order to remain safe we should blindfiold ourselves to
> anything other than what Nick wants to talk about. DHE is NLP. I think it
> is
> a valid NLP subject. 3D Mind is going to be compared since so many NLPers
> have used it.
>
> BTW I
>> have a set of 3D Mind videos.
>
> Yes I know and I saw your opinion of them. Lousy production and hard to
> follow or something like that...YET......THOUSANDS of people have easily
> been able to change their lives with i. Many who have endlessly tried to
> use
> NLP with ZERO results. So again maybe it is your limitation or previous
> investment in NLP that clouds your brain.
>
> Bottom line is this. The run and hide approach to DHE tell us all alot
> about it. I was there and I know. The question is what the definition of
> DHE
> is and what measurable results has DHE produced.
>
> Damn shame......This makes NLP look more and more like a scam every time I
> see behavior like Nick's.
>
> Hey Nick maybe you should call for the banning of our siter as well.
>
> Tom
>
> www.essential-skills.com
>
>
>

Nick Kemp

We agree to disagree and behave differently which is fine

I'm curious to know though whether without NLP, essential skills would
have existed?
I ask this as a grnuine question, not as a provocation!


As you would say

Have fun! <g>

lol

Nick

Tom Vizzini

"dca" <dca@dca.de> wrote in message news:dfkbm3$2o7$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> seems to me, as a new kid on the block, that the Essential Skills guys
jump
> at the opportunity to lambaste NLP.

I am the only essential skills guy here. I think asking for proof is a
prudent way of finding value.


> I agree with the comment that this is an NLP NG.
> Surely if people wanted to challenge, contest or argue NLP they should set
> up a NG headed everythingbutNLP or some such?

Is it a NLP group? Maybe it is a group where people look for answers to help
them and NLP is but one choice.

> I would expect to find constructive learning in a NG like this. Not
ongoing
> contests.

There has not been any learning here for years. Only ducking questions.


> Its almost like going to the Reference Section of a Library, and looking
in
> the MODERN ART SECTION for everything to do with MOTOR MECHANICS and then
> ripping into the Librarian because the offerings they have in the section
I
> was looking for the information I wanted was USELESS.....

Sorry this does not hold water. I think the questions about NLP have been
ducked for years. I used to be one of the people helping duck questions but
I have changed my mind. Now I demand proof of all claims.

If you want to make a claim...prove it. That is the standard that I am held
to so why not NLP?

One interesting thing.......there are no posts about results from using NLP
from anyone other than trainers. Is that not strange?

Tom

Tom Vizzini

"Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126020422.452673.65190@g14g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> We agree to disagree and behave differently which is fine
>
> I'm curious to know though whether without NLP, essential skills would
> have existed?
> I ask this as a grnuine question, not as a provocation!

Actually no but for a different reason that you think.

I went to a few trainings and had a lot of products and studied NLP for 7
years and became frustrated with what was not working or not being taught.
So we designed the Essential Skills to fill the gaps that NLP and other
studies had ignored.

Our anchoring products are the best on the market for explaining not only
how to anchor but where and when. They are well beyond the "think of a time"
elicitation followed by a touch on the knee. They are real world skills not
just therapy skills. They are so good that other people have copied them.

Rapport was all mirroring and matching before we came up with Magical
Rapport Skills. Again so powerful they have been copied by several
"trainers". The effects are spooky.

NLP talked about visualizing but assumed that everyone could do it. We found
that to be false so decided to teach that too.

Tonality was mentioned but never taught. Many people knew about embedded
commands but not how to covertly use them The people we saw at seminar who
tried sounded like they had a speech defect rather than artful use of
Tonality. That or they were annoying Bandler parrots.

So what we designed was because NLP did NOT teach it in any useful way back
in 1998. It has been so successful that many of the concepts have been
copied.

So necessity was the mother of invention. In this case it started the
Essential Skills.

So our frustration with NLP was the fuel for our creativity.

Now the same is true of the 3D Mind. Our frustration with NLP not working
generated our creativity by looking OUTSIDE of NLP and hypnosis for ways to
make powerful changes. Much is found in the eastern philosophy of balance
and health. Add to that our personal research topped of with learning how
the physcal brain works and you have a powerful tool that does not rely on
myth or metaphor. It follows actual physical brain function.

So if you question is if without the frustration of NLP would we have
developed the Essential Skills.......then most likely not.

That was fun

Tom

dca

**I am the only essential skills guy here. I think asking for proof is a
prudent way of finding value.**

seems to me that whenever someone presents an answer you throw it back and
quote 3D. This is not finding value - its finding fault and not adding
value.


*Is it a NLP group? Maybe it is a group where people look for answers to
help
them and NLP is but one choice.*

The group is registered as alt.psychology.NLP - if you prefer you could
create alt.psychology.3D i suppose.

Anyway seems to me that I am right about you and your intentions so I choose
not to respond to anymore of your posts.
Thats simple enough for me to do.

Bye Bye





"Tom Vizzini" <Tom@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:AumdnZ2dnZ3gD1jDnZ2dnf0ogN6dnZ2dRVn-yZ2dnZ0@adelphia.com...
>
> "dca" <dca@dca.de> wrote in message
> news:dfkbm3$2o7$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>> seems to me, as a new kid on the block, that the Essential Skills guys
> jump
>> at the opportunity to lambaste NLP.
>
> I am the only essential skills guy here. I think asking for proof is a
> prudent way of finding value.
>
>
>> I agree with the comment that this is an NLP NG.
>> Surely if people wanted to challenge, contest or argue NLP they should
>> set
>> up a NG headed everythingbutNLP or some such?
>
> Is it a NLP group? Maybe it is a group where people look for answers to
> help
> them and NLP is but one choice.
>
>> I would expect to find constructive learning in a NG like this. Not
> ongoing
>> contests.
>
> There has not been any learning here for years. Only ducking questions.
>
>
>> Its almost like going to the Reference Section of a Library, and looking
> in
>> the MODERN ART SECTION for everything to do with MOTOR MECHANICS and then
>> ripping into the Librarian because the offerings they have in the section
> I
>> was looking for the information I wanted was USELESS.....
>
> Sorry this does not hold water. I think the questions about NLP have been
> ducked for years. I used to be one of the people helping duck questions
> but
> I have changed my mind. Now I demand proof of all claims.
>
> If you want to make a claim...prove it. That is the standard that I am
> held
> to so why not NLP?
>
> One interesting thing.......there are no posts about results from using
> NLP
> from anyone other than trainers. Is that not strange?
>
> Tom
>
>

dca

watch the response and be ready for an assault!


"Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126020422.452673.65190@g14g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> We agree to disagree and behave differently which is fine
>
> I'm curious to know though whether without NLP, essential skills would
> have existed?
> I ask this as a grnuine question, not as a provocation!
>
>
> As you would say
>
> Have fun! <g>
>
> lol
>
> Nick
>

dca

oh, and before I cut you off totally if you are the ONLY ESSENTIAL SKILLS
person here who is UnKah? Not that it matters because I wont be reading your
posts : but seems to me that you or essential-skills are a bit duplicitous?

finally
and for good

bye bye




"Tom Vizzini" <Tom@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:AumdnZ2dnZ3gD1jDnZ2dnf0ogN6dnZ2dRVn-yZ2dnZ0@adelphia.com...
>
> "dca" <dca@dca.de> wrote in message
> news:dfkbm3$2o7$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>> seems to me, as a new kid on the block, that the Essential Skills guys
> jump
>> at the opportunity to lambaste NLP.
>
> I am the only essential skills guy here. I think asking for proof is a
> prudent way of finding value.
>
>
>> I agree with the comment that this is an NLP NG.
>> Surely if people wanted to challenge, contest or argue NLP they should
>> set
>> up a NG headed everythingbutNLP or some such?
>
> Is it a NLP group? Maybe it is a group where people look for answers to
> help
> them and NLP is but one choice.
>
>> I would expect to find constructive learning in a NG like this. Not
> ongoing
>> contests.
>
> There has not been any learning here for years. Only ducking questions.
>
>
>> Its almost like going to the Reference Section of a Library, and looking
> in
>> the MODERN ART SECTION for everything to do with MOTOR MECHANICS and then
>> ripping into the Librarian because the offerings they have in the section
> I
>> was looking for the information I wanted was USELESS.....
>
> Sorry this does not hold water. I think the questions about NLP have been
> ducked for years. I used to be one of the people helping duck questions
> but
> I have changed my mind. Now I demand proof of all claims.
>
> If you want to make a claim...prove it. That is the standard that I am
> held
> to so why not NLP?
>
> One interesting thing.......there are no posts about results from using
> NLP
> from anyone other than trainers. Is that not strange?
>
> Tom
>
>

Tom Vizzini

"dca" <dca@dca.de> wrote in message news:dfkdsu$6vh$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> watch the response and be ready for an assault!

Interesting and yet......there was no assault.

Nick Kemp

Yes it was!

lol

Nick

UnKaH

Bye Bye, who I am is not important, what is important is you continue
to duck the question of DHE, so go ahead and wander off in lala land
which is where you need to be. One day reality will slap you in the
head and you'll say, WTF as you wake up, only to fall right back
asleep. Bye Bye

UnKaH

many who used to post here left because of the shame they brought to
the profession of DHE and NLP. They the NLP world instead of defending
it, using sound facts, they resorted to name calling, and distracting
from this issues. Their morals and conduct was called into question so
they left, good fucking riddance.

Now for your question, who are you referring to when you said someone
is angry? I'm not angry, If I was angry you'd know it because my posts
would start out something like, look here you goat fucking retard chimp

If you want discussion, not a problem, if you want name calling, I
rather enjoy that cause it's fun to me, so what do you want?

UnKaH

Greg,

3-D Mind there is only one pattern that works for anything, and I mean
anything, so to give that away would be giving away the farm, I don't
give any of it away because it is not my place, it is not my product.
That would be Tom's choice to do so.

The only reason I am a firm supporter of 3-D Mind is because of the
powerful results I have seen it generate again and again and because
they give you your money back if your not happy with their product.
They stand behind it 100%. I've yet to see any other trainer make the
same claim, if their stuff is as good as their ads claim they should
have no problem what so ever in putting up, or just shutting up.

JL

Many many thanks for the reply.

Great with some actual real info in this godforsaken place...

All the best / JL

Dirk Bansch

At the first NHR in Edinburgh, he explained some NLP patterns to
participants and I was quite impressed with how elegantly he did it.
The proof of the pudding was that the guys he talked to then did a
pretty good job at applying those skills in the seminar.

Dirk
www.bronze-dragon.com

dca

NOTE TO SELF
======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============


"UnKaH" <monsterbaby@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1126036893.124162.246990@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Bye Bye, who I am is not important, what is important is you continue
> to duck the question of DHE, so go ahead and wander off in lala land
> which is where you need to be. One day reality will slap you in the
> head and you'll say, WTF as you wake up, only to fall right back
> asleep. Bye Bye
>

dca

NOTE TO SELF
======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============


"UnKaH" <monsterbaby@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1126037431.728415.227000@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
> many who used to post here left because of the shame they brought to
> the profession of DHE and NLP. They the NLP world instead of defending
> it, using sound facts, they resorted to name calling, and distracting
> from this issues. Their morals and conduct was called into question so
> they left, good fucking riddance.
>
> Now for your question, who are you referring to when you said someone
> is angry? I'm not angry, If I was angry you'd know it because my posts
> would start out something like, look here you goat fucking retard chimp
>
> If you want discussion, not a problem, if you want name calling, I
> rather enjoy that cause it's fun to me, so what do you want?
>

dca

NOTE TO SELF
======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============


"UnKaH" <monsterbaby@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1126038144.853786.262180@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Greg,
>
> 3-D Mind there is only one pattern that works for anything, and I mean
> anything, so to give that away would be giving away the farm, I don't
> give any of it away because it is not my place, it is not my product.
> That would be Tom's choice to do so.
>
> The only reason I am a firm supporter of 3-D Mind is because of the
> powerful results I have seen it generate again and again and because
> they give you your money back if your not happy with their product.
> They stand behind it 100%. I've yet to see any other trainer make the
> same claim, if their stuff is as good as their ads claim they should
> have no problem what so ever in putting up, or just shutting up.
>

Tom Vizzini

"dca" <dca@dca.de> wrote in message news:dflubf$jkg$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> NOTE TO SELF
> ======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============
>
Uh......I guess you aren't doing a very good job with your notes. You still
are paying attention to them.....

dca

NOTE TO SELF
======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============

"Tom Vizzini" <Tom@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:zrCdnVg3rKRpcIPeRVn-tA@adelphia.com...
>
> "dca" <dca@dca.de> wrote in message
> news:dflubf$jkg$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>> NOTE TO SELF
>> ======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============
>>
> Uh......I guess you aren't doing a very good job with your notes. You
> still
> are paying attention to them.....
>
>
>
>

Nic

dca wrote:

> NOTE TO SELF
> ======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============
>

You may miss out on learning opportunities if you do. Just because you
don't like the way in which Unka and Tom couch their posts, don't be too
quick to dismiss their knowledge.

dca

i hear you, but unfortunately I only have a little time to read and digest
everything that is posted in the NG's. I cant give time to abusive and
seemingly self seeking responses.

thanx for your input.


"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfn323$f5v$2@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> dca wrote:
>
>> NOTE TO SELF
>> ======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============
>>
>
> You may miss out on learning opportunities if you do. Just because you
> don't like the way in which Unka and Tom couch their posts, don't be too
> quick to dismiss their knowledge.

Greg Alexander

> > Greg wrote:
> >> 3Dmind has quite a few supporters here. They advertise alot,
> >> and give enough information to gain interest,
> >> but nothing specific enough to try a pattern.
>
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
> > If you go to (essential skills website)
> > You will get a very detailed explaination of the 3D mind and
> > what it is about.
> > You get all the presuppositions, explaination and RESULTS

Hi Tom,
On the website I've noticed a focus on "why" 3D mind works,
and testimonials that it does. My comment was only that
there wasn't any "how to do it"...

But to that I noted:
> >> I assume that's because Tom would lose his income if it's as
> >> easy as he says and he published a pattern here - so that's fair enough.

UnKaH wrote:
> 3-D Mind there is only one pattern that works for anything, and I mean
> anything, so to give that away would be giving away the farm,

Thanks Tim that was my impression. And it's a valid reason.

UnKaH

It's worth the money and remember this one thing, if you don't think it
is, they will give your money back

Greg Alexander

Tom Vizzini wrote:
> I went to a few trainings and had a lot of products and studied NLP for 7
> years and became frustrated with what was not working or not being taught.
> So we designed the Essential Skills to fill the gaps that NLP and other
> studies had ignored.

Hi Tom,
Just wondering - when you filled the gaps that classic NLP trainings
were ignoring, was that to improve NLP generally or were you adding
your own product?

> Our anchoring products <snip> are real world skills not just therapy skills.
> Rapport was all mirroring and matching <snip>
> NLP talked about visualizing but assumed that everyone could do it. <snip>
> Tonality was mentioned but never taught.

I'm glad I didn't learn the classic stuff before the new coding, which
seems to also have fixed these issues and more.

> So what we designed was because NLP did NOT teach it in any useful way back
> in 1998. So necessity was the mother of invention.

New Code was doing this in 1998 too, that's the problem with having no
"field of NLP", the cross collaboration is so much less.

Tom Vizzini

"Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:1126159170.285709.222870@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>> I went to a few trainings and had a lot of products and studied NLP for 7
>> years and became frustrated with what was not working or not being
>> taught.
>> So we designed the Essential Skills to fill the gaps that NLP and other
>> studies had ignored.
>
> Hi Tom,
> Just wondering - when you filled the gaps that classic NLP trainings
> were ignoring, was that to improve NLP generally or were you adding
> your own product?

What is the difference?



>
>> So what we designed was because NLP did NOT teach it in any useful way
>> back
>> in 1998. So necessity was the mother of invention.
>
> New Code was doing this in 1998 too, that's the problem with having no
> "field of NLP", the cross collaboration is so much less.

Sorry I still see no real world usable anchoring and rapport skills in New
Code stuff. Maybe you can tell me where I can find it.

Tom

essential-skills.com

Tom


>

Nic

Tom Wrote

>snip
>
>
> Sorry I still see no real world usable anchoring and rapport skills in New
> Code stuff. Maybe you can tell me where I can find it.
>

Tom, what are your reservations about NLP style anchors? I seem to
recall you wrote about NLP anchoring being done in a timid way with
small anchors. That was not the way I was taught - 'make them big and
bold and unobtrusive' was what I learned, at least when installing
physical anchors in others.

The one's I've done work, and last - my partner has an anchor on her
left shoulder fired with my hand on it that, has been installed in very
plesant circumstances and, how shall I put it, makes her go weak at the
knees 15 months after it was installed!

Tom Vizzini

"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfq9og$sqq$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Tom Wrote
>
> >snip
>>
>>
>> Sorry I still see no real world usable anchoring and rapport skills in
>> New Code stuff. Maybe you can tell me where I can find it.
>>
>
> Tom, what are your reservations about NLP style anchors?

I have a few. First being that the elicitations are clunky. The standard
"think of a time" elicitation has no real world application. The Essential
Skills stuff is for real world application. It focuses on covert anchoring
skills and conversational elicitation. These are almost NEVER physical.

I seem to
> recall you wrote about NLP anchoring being done in a timid way with small
> anchors. That was not the way I was taught - 'make them big and bold and
> unobtrusive' was what I learned, at least when installing physical anchors
> in others.

I am not sure what you mean.

>
> The one's I've done work, and last - my partner has an anchor on her left
> shoulder fired with my hand on it that, has been installed in very plesant
> circumstances and, how shall I put it, makes her go weak at the knees 15
> months after it was installed!

A good anchor should last a long time. What we focus on is making those
anchors invisible to the person anchored.

Real world skills. Real world results.

NLP style anchoring is fine for therapy but not for real world stuff.

Tom

essential-skills.com

Garry Freemyer

Thing is, that its simple, but subtle. I find that I have gotten farther
along in the process because of the new stuff, and the variations that folks
in the forum bring up, and the advice, I've gotten. I've found three areas,
that after having watched the tapes, and read and re-read the guides and
other articles, that I discovered, were, gross mis-conceptions about what I
thought I understood. These mis-conceptions were extremely foolish
misunderstandings to make. To me, it would be tantamount to someone who is
constantly mistaking their own image in a mirror for someone else and ends
up talking to the mirror.

If it weren't for the forum, I would not have discovered these. I had never
noticed, that I had to actually be Feeling a state, in order to balance it
with another state, and that I had to be feeling that too. I was left with
the feeling that I had been twizzling the knobs on an etch-a-sketch, when I
was supposed to be getting my fingers in the dirt, not drawing on it with a
straw.

True, it sounds like a simple thing, and If someone did give away the farm,
I suppose, resourceful folks could fill in the gaps, and start a big change
in things, but as Tom said, the biggest value is in the forums, and the
communication and bouncing ideas off of others.

When I first began, I had watched the tapes, closely, I had made notes, I
started trying this and that, and I kept posting my ideas only to find out
they were traps. I began to feel like I was standing in a field full of
invisible dog piles, and it seemed that no-matter where I stepped, I seemed
to find another pile of excrement (another trap) or mistake. I stuck with it
though. I'd still be buried in glop, if it weren't for the forums at the
site.

"Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:1126146470.362406.197960@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>> > Greg wrote:
>> >> 3Dmind has quite a few supporters here. They advertise alot,
>> >> and give enough information to gain interest,
>> >> but nothing specific enough to try a pattern.
>>
>> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>> > If you go to (essential skills website)
>> > You will get a very detailed explaination of the 3D mind and
>> > what it is about.
>> > You get all the presuppositions, explaination and RESULTS
>
> Hi Tom,
> On the website I've noticed a focus on "why" 3D mind works,
> and testimonials that it does. My comment was only that
> there wasn't any "how to do it"...
>
> But to that I noted:
>> >> I assume that's because Tom would lose his income if it's as
>> >> easy as he says and he published a pattern here - so that's fair
>> >> enough.
>
> UnKaH wrote:
>> 3-D Mind there is only one pattern that works for anything, and I mean
>> anything, so to give that away would be giving away the farm,
>
> Thanks Tim that was my impression. And it's a valid reason.
>
>

Greg Alexander

Tom Vizzini wrote:
> "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> >> So what we designed was because NLP did NOT teach it in any useful
> >> way back in 1998. So necessity was the mother of invention.
> >
> > New Code was doing this in 1998 too, that's the problem with having no
> > "field of NLP", the cross collaboration is so much less.
>
> Sorry I still see no real world usable anchoring and rapport skills in New
> Code stuff.

Just as an example, we induce state changes in conversation and use any
of the sensory systems for anchoring (tonal shifts, visual anchors).
The very first anchor we practice is kinaesthetic, a training exercise
- though it's made clear that kinaesthetic anchors are far less common
or useful.

As for rapport skills, I'd need an example of what you call a "real
world usable" rapport skills as I find it difficult to think of it in
any other way (besides a really artificial, obvious, and useless
mimicking).

> Maybe you can tell me where I can find it.

I'm not sure where you'd find it besides in training. I'll have to
check out "whispering in the wind" to see what it says about it. Other
than that a New Code training manual would be the place I guess.

> > Just wondering - when you filled the gaps that classic NLP trainings
> > were ignoring, was that to improve NLP generally or were you adding
> > your own product?
>
> What is the difference?

Your focus and intent.

New Code is, at it's core, about modelling. In that sense, it's not
about anchoring or rapport, but rather how we can learn from excellent
models of any skill. The challenge is finding some great models and
learning what they do that makes the difference. So finding something
new is a great thing, an expansion of what we as people can do. John
hopes that people will continue to add to those models - maybe you
found something new which was worthwhile, maybe not.

Of course New Code also teaches NLP-applications coded with ecology etc
etc.
Greg
ps. .... using words other than "pattern" so we can agree or disagree
on actual thoughts

Tom Vizzini

"Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:1126270234.446664.15070@g14g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

> > Sorry I still see no real world usable anchoring and rapport skills in
New
> > Code stuff.
>
> Just as an example, we induce state changes in conversation and use any
> of the sensory systems for anchoring (tonal shifts, visual anchors).
> The very first anchor we practice is kinaesthetic, a training exercise
> - though it's made clear that kinaesthetic anchors are far less common
> or useful.

My point is that the difference is real worls usable skills versus
therapudic skills.


>
> > > Just wondering - when you filled the gaps that classic NLP trainings
> > > were ignoring, was that to improve NLP generally or were you adding
> > > your own product?
> >
> > What is the difference?
>
> Your focus and intent.

Of whom? If I did it for money and it works great how is it different in
value to if I did it to improve humanity?

>
> New Code is, at it's core, about modelling. In that sense, it's not
> about anchoring or rapport, but rather how we can learn from excellent
> models of any skill. The challenge is finding some great models and
> learning what they do that makes the difference. So finding something
> new is a great thing, an expansion of what we as people can do. John
> hopes that people will continue to add to those models - maybe you
> found something new which was worthwhile, maybe not.

UNless you can open you mind and set aside everuthing you think you
know....you may never find out. If you weren't taught to do that when
modeling I think you deserve a refund.

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Garry Freemyer

Actually, I think he may be writing the notes, but he forgets to read them.
LOL!!

Maybe his curiosity is overcoming his preconceptions. If that is so, his
curiosity could cause him to discover something neat.

"Tom Vizzini" <Tom@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:zrCdnVg3rKRpcIPeRVn-tA@adelphia.com...
>
> "dca" <dca@dca.de> wrote in message
> news:dflubf$jkg$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>> NOTE TO SELF
>> ======= IGNORE ALL ESSENTIAL-SKILLS.COM POSTINGS============
>>
> Uh......I guess you aren't doing a very good job with your notes. You
> still
> are paying attention to them.....
>
>
>
>
>

Nic

>
>
> My point is that the difference is real worls usable skills versus
> therapudic skills.
>
>
>
So you are saying that therapeutic skills are not real world skills?

Tom Vizzini

"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfu6g1$rft$2@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> >
> >
> > My point is that the difference is real worls usable skills versus
> > therapudic skills.
> >
> >
> >
> So you are saying that therapeutic skills are not real world skills?

Yes.

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Nic

Tom Vizzini wrote:

> "Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:dfu6g1$rft$2@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
>>>
>>>My point is that the difference is real worls usable skills versus
>>>therapudic skills.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>So you are saying that therapeutic skills are not real world skills?
>
>
> Yes.
>
> Tom
>
> www.essential-skills.com
>
>
Interesting. I thought therapeutic skills are designed at helping
clients to live in their real world.

Tom Vizzini

"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfv6q3$s2b$2@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>
> > "Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> > news:dfu6g1$rft$2@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >
> >>>
> >>>My point is that the difference is real worls usable skills versus
> >>>therapudic skills.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>So you are saying that therapeutic skills are not real world skills?
> >
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > www.essential-skills.com
> >
> >
> Interesting. I thought therapeutic skills are designed at helping
> clients to live in their real world.

Real World Skills are for use outside of just the therapudic context

Tom

Greg Alexander

Tom Vizzini wrote:
> "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > Tom wrote:
> > > Sorry I still see no real world usable anchoring and rapport skills
> > > in New Code stuff.
> >
> > Just as an example, we induce state changes in conversation and
> > use any of the sensory systems for anchoring (tonal shifts, visual
> > anchors).
>
> My point is that the difference is real worls usable skills versus
> therapudic skills.

I'll assume by "real world" you mean outside of therapy. And our
training is in real world skills, plus applications in therapy.

In the real world I converse with people, people change states, and
states can be anchored by tones, expressions, gestures, whatever.
Anchors can be set off similarly. Most people aren't even aware of how
we all do this every day, and learning this gives a certain freedom and
quality to communication.

Anchors can also be done with tones/gestures etc, or you can instruct
people to "find a happy time" and anchor it on their leg - which is
very artificial.

I guess I'm not calling these "real world" vs "therapeutic" skills, I'm
thinking "subtle", vs "artificial". If it's artificial and obvious it
is less effective in therapy, and will get strange looks in public

Same goes for rapport. Artificial/obvious is of little value for either
the practitioner or client (or just generally in the real world). You
can practice a skill safely in class, but it's value is when it becomes
natural and unconscious.

> > Just wondering - when you filled the gaps that classic NLP trainings
> > were ignoring, was that to improve NLP generally or were you adding
> > your own product?
>
> If I did it for money and it works great how is it different in
> value to if I did it to improve humanity?

Of course it's different. But there's nothing wrong with making money,
I quite approve of it myself.

> > New Code is, at it's core, about modelling. In that sense, it's not
> > about anchoring or rapport, but rather how we can learn from excellent
> > models of any skill. The challenge is finding some great models and
> > learning what they do that makes the difference. So finding something
> > new is a great thing, an expansion of what we as people can do. John
> > hopes that people will continue to add to those models - maybe you
> > found something new which was worthwhile, maybe not.
>
> UNless you can open you mind and set aside everuthing you think you
> know....you may never find out.

Absolutely, this fits with everything I said above

Greg

usmarine_lv

Now that's the type of Anchoring that I like!