peroxcro

Can you suggest good web pages, and good book about 3D mind?

Thanks.

John

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:29:39 +0200, "peroxcro"
<peroxcroREMOVE_THIS@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Can you suggest good web pages, and good book about 3D mind?

<Grown>

--

yo!

www.essential-skills.com

"peroxcro" <peroxcroREMOVE_THIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dfu244$762$1@ss405.t-com.hr...
> Can you suggest good web pages, and good book about 3D mind?
>
> Thanks.
>

Tom Vizzini

"peroxcro" <peroxcroREMOVE_THIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dfu244$762$1@ss405.t-com.hr...
> Can you suggest good web pages, and good book about 3D mind?

http://essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043

There you go

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

>
> Thanks.
>
>

Garry Freemyer

I forgot to mention, that the tapes and the DVD's on 3DMind technique are
little more expensive than most textbooks, and less expensive than some.
Plus, with the purchase of these items, you get a money back guarantee, and
access to the forum.

Contrast this with Barne's and Noble where if I try to return a book because
I find it is horribly written, they look at me like I just sprouted a second
head.


"peroxcro" <peroxcroREMOVE_THIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dfu244$762$1@ss405.t-com.hr...
> Can you suggest good web pages, and good book about 3D mind?
>
> Thanks.
>

highlife66

As long as the book still looks new they'll still take it; they have
for me...
H

> Contrast this with Barne's and Noble where if I try to return a book because
> I find it is horribly written, they look at me like I just sprouted a second
> head.
>
>
> "peroxcro" <peroxcroREMOVE_THIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:dfu244$762$1@ss405.t-com.hr...
> > Can you suggest good web pages, and good book about 3D mind?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >

more.soma@gmail.com

If you search on the archive of this newgroup about 2 1/2 years ago
there is a summary of what 3D mind is "3D Mind part 1" there is a part
2 too. All you need to know.


peroxcro wrote:
> Can you suggest good web pages, and good book about 3D mind?
>
> Thanks.

Nic

On your home page you refer to Ken Guiffrie's model of the brain. Can
you give me a link to it please? I'd like to do some follow up reading
and Google reveals nothing.

Tom Vizzini

"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dgcjis$84d$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> On your home page you refer to Ken Guiffrie's model of the brain. Can you
> give me a link to it please? I'd like to do some follow up reading and
> Google reveals nothing.

Nope...Ken gives a presentation on his model and how it applies to the 3D
Mind that we taped. It will be part of the new 3D Mind Prac videos when they
are released. Until then get a good book on neuroscience and begin educating
yourself on how the brain really works. You will be stunned. Learning this
will show you why the 3D mind works and why NLP, Hypnosis and Psychotherapy
fall short.


Tom

www.essential-skills.com

terrancejack@yahoo.com

Tom Vizzini wrote:
> > Nope...Ken gives a presentation on his model and how it applies to the 3D
> Mind that we taped. It will be part of the new 3D Mind Prac videos when they
> are released.

Tom,
When will the 3D Prac tapes be coming out?

Terry

Tom Vizzini

<terrancejack@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126829148.844848.172340@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
>
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>> > Nope...Ken gives a presentation on his model and how it applies to the
>> > 3D
>> Mind that we taped. It will be part of the new 3D Mind Prac videos when
>> they
>> are released.
>
> Tom,
> When will the 3D Prac tapes be coming out?

I am loading them into the computer as we speak. I will begin editing next
week.

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

>
> Terry
>

Nic

Tom Vizzini wrote:

>Snip

Until then get a good book on neuroscience and begin educating
> yourself on how the brain really works. You will be stunned. Learning this
> will show you why the 3D mind works and why NLP, Hypnosis and Psychotherapy
> fall short.

I love your pre-suppositions about people - you known nothing of me yet
recommend I need to 'begin educating myself about how the brain really
works.' You are assuming I know nothing yet, it is because I know more
than you may think that I have binned a lot of NLP, Hypnosis and
psychotherapy.

Oh, and the whole debate about the unconscious mind? I challenged your
saying it does not exist because on the one hand you claim it does not,
yet on the other hand in at least 2 places on your homepage, you use the
term!
>
>
> Tom
>
> www.essential-skills.com
>
>

Tom Vizzini

"Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dge01b$1hm$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>
> >Snip
>
> Until then get a good book on neuroscience and begin educating
> > yourself on how the brain really works. You will be stunned. Learning
this
> > will show you why the 3D mind works and why NLP, Hypnosis and
Psychotherapy
> > fall short.
>
> I love your pre-suppositions about people - you known nothing of me yet
> recommend I need to 'begin educating myself about how the brain really
> works.' You are assuming I know nothing yet, it is because I know more
> than you may think that I have binned a lot of NLP, Hypnosis and
> psychotherapy.

Are you saying you have studied Neuroscience?

>
> Oh, and the whole debate about the unconscious mind? I challenged your
> saying it does not exist because on the one hand you claim it does not,
> yet on the other hand in at least 2 places on your homepage, you use the
> term!

Wow 2 places in 65 pages? What is your point? We use the term unconscious as
a metaphor not as a real part of the mind that has super powers. There was a
time I did follow that line of thinking but at this point I do not believe
it is useful or true.

What I have found is that some people think the metaphor of the unconscious
mind is a real thing. They blame it for behaviors. The ask it for advice.
They think it is the super intelligent know it all of the body.

Hell some people think it runs 600 functions of the liver. That is just
silly. Anyone who has any education about the body and the brain knows
better. But still there are those who think that this all powerful
unconscious mind runs it all.

Damn I feel like I just told you there is no Santa Clause. Sorry to break
the news.

Here lets take this a different direction. What proof is there that the
inconscious mind exists as a seperate entity?


Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Nic

>
> Here lets take this a different direction. What proof is there that the
> inconscious mind exists as a seperate entity?
>
>

None that I am aware of, but then I've never used it as such - I work in
terms of levels of consciousness, in trems of thing of which we are more
or less conscious.

And as to your question about neuroscience, I have studied the
anatomical structure of the brain and its different components enough to
give me a working knowledge, enough to treat it holistically and enough
to realise that a lot of psychology theory, NLP theory and hypnosis
theory is suspect, to say the least!


> Tom
>
> www.essential-skills.com
>
>

Nic

>
> Hell some people think it runs 600 functions of the liver. That is just
> silly. Anyone who has any education about the body and the brain knows
> better. But still there are those who think that this all powerful
> unconscious mind runs it all.
>

I only said that the 600 hundred liver functions were run as an
unconscious process - anything else was ascribed by you.

Ok, so you call it 'autonomic processes'. My point is that they are run
by the brain at a level of which we are not usually conscious. that is
not the same as believing in an all powerful unconscious mind.

You see, you are so keen to promote your product, you can't even see
when someone is supporting most of what you say.

Harun

My friend,

Its none of my bussiness if you think that this product works or
not, but if you are in anyway thinking of not trying 3dmind because you
are in an argument with the co-creator, you are losing alot. Try it,
and you will cry at how easy the process is and how your view of the
world collapses in front of your eyes.
I support Vizzini %100 in his advertisement.. in fact I were him I
would promote it more vigorously but I think he is not doing so because
he wants to get full grasp of brain activitties, and enhance the
product so that nobody will come out saying I invented a new thing
called 4DMIND and say he is the creator of all this.
Thats my thought.



Nic yazdi:
> >
> > Hell some people think it runs 600 functions of the liver. That is just
> > silly. Anyone who has any education about the body and the brain knows
> > better. But still there are those who think that this all powerful
> > unconscious mind runs it all.
> >
>
> I only said that the 600 hundred liver functions were run as an
> unconscious process - anything else was ascribed by you.
>
> Ok, so you call it 'autonomic processes'. My point is that they are run
> by the brain at a level of which we are not usually conscious. that is
> not the same as believing in an all powerful unconscious mind.
>
> You see, you are so keen to promote your product, you can't even see
> when someone is supporting most of what you say.

Ross

in article -dednYe9VcvBW7fenZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@adelphia.com, Tom Vizzini at
Tom@essential-skills.com wrote on 9/16/05 6:19 AM:

>
> "Nic" <nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:dge01b$1hm$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>>
>>> Snip
>>
>> Until then get a good book on neuroscience and begin educating
>>> yourself on how the brain really works. You will be stunned. Learning
> this
>>> will show you why the 3D mind works and why NLP, Hypnosis and
> Psychotherapy
>>> fall short.
>>
>> I love your pre-suppositions about people - you known nothing of me yet
>> recommend I need to 'begin educating myself about how the brain really
>> works.' You are assuming I know nothing yet, it is because I know more
>> than you may think that I have binned a lot of NLP, Hypnosis and
>> psychotherapy.
>
> Are you saying you have studied Neuroscience?
>
>>
>> Oh, and the whole debate about the unconscious mind? I challenged your
>> saying it does not exist because on the one hand you claim it does not,
>> yet on the other hand in at least 2 places on your homepage, you use the
>> term!
>
> Wow 2 places in 65 pages? What is your point? We use the term unconscious as
> a metaphor not as a real part of the mind that has super powers. There was a
> time I did follow that line of thinking but at this point I do not believe
> it is useful or true.
>
> What I have found is that some people think the metaphor of the unconscious
> mind is a real thing. They blame it for behaviors. The ask it for advice.
> They think it is the super intelligent know it all of the body.
>
> Hell some people think it runs 600 functions of the liver. That is just
> silly. Anyone who has any education about the body and the brain knows
> better. But still there are those who think that this all powerful
> unconscious mind runs it all.
>
> Damn I feel like I just told you there is no Santa Clause. Sorry to break
> the news.
>
> Here lets take this a different direction. What proof is there that the
> inconscious mind exists as a seperate entity?
>

Tom,

I get your points and what you are aiming at, AND......to me....

"Mind" is just a way of talking about different processes, whether labeled
conscious or unconscious. To me, "unconscious" would include those thought
processes that take place outside of conscious perception, or, as in dreams,
absent conscious volition.

I doubt very many people consciously create their dreams at night; instead
the dreams are experienced as being lived or witnessed while being created
by some other part of the mind. Obviously, then, some other aspect of
conscious function, other than the normal waking one is in operation, and it
correlates to different brain waves than "waking" consciousness; hence Alpha
waves, Theta, Beta, etc.

More practically:

It's possible to consciously work on a problem and then have the solution
appear metaphorically in a dream, reverie or vision, as in Kerkule seeing
the structure of the benzene molecule in a dream about a snake swallowing
its tail.

Surely then, there ARE unconscious processes that are useful, vital and
real. Whether there is such a nominalization as an "unconscious mind" is
another argument. I do believe the unconscious can be used as a means to
access information that exists outside of the physical body; as in
Sheldrake's idea of morphogenic fields.

Nothing wrong with calling upon unconscious creative processes to assist in
finding creative solutions to challenging situations; artists, writers,
scientists, poets, etc have been doing it since fugging forever.

And personally, I believe that the symbology of the unconscious can be used
to tap into the "super-conscious" that exists independent of any individual
human existence.

Just my 3 cents..your mileage WILL vary.


RJ
93/93
>
> Tom
>
> www.essential-skills.com
>
>

Greg Alexander

Nic wrote:
> Ok, so you call it 'autonomic processes'. My point is that they are run
> by the brain at a level of which we are not usually conscious. that is
> not the same as believing in an all powerful unconscious mind.

What you're saying is very important.
There are 2 separate issues.
1) our communication of what we believe, and
2) what we believe.

We could communicate perfectly, yet not agree.
If we communicate badly we have no idea whether we agree or not.

When Tom hears "unconscious" he also hears "all powerful" - that's his
definition.

> you can't even see when someone is supporting most of what you say.

That happens at times. How can we work out if we agree if we use some
words in different ways?

Greg

John

On 18 Sep 2005 00:07:10 -0700, "Greg Alexander"
<galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

>Nic wrote:
>> Ok, so you call it 'autonomic processes'. My point is that they are run
>> by the brain at a level of which we are not usually conscious. that is
>> not the same as believing in an all powerful unconscious mind.
>
>What you're saying is very important.
>There are 2 separate issues.
>1) our communication of what we believe, and
>2) what we believe.
>
>We could communicate perfectly, yet not agree.
>If we communicate badly we have no idea whether we agree or not.
>
>When Tom hears "unconscious" he also hears "all powerful" - that's his

...and when he hears NLP he also hears bullshit.

--
John

John

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:39:34 +0000 (UTC), Nic
<nicoliver@btinternet.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> Here lets take this a different direction. What proof is there that the
>> inconscious mind exists as a seperate entity?
>>
>>
>
>None that I am aware of, but then I've never used it as such - I work in
>terms of levels of consciousness, in trems of thing of which we are more
>or less conscious.
>
>And as to your question about neuroscience, I have studied the
>anatomical structure of the brain and its different components enough to
>give me a working knowledge, enough to treat it holistically and enough
>to realise that a lot of psychology theory, NLP theory and hypnosis
>theory is suspect, to say the least!

Which NLP theory is that? I am not aware of one.

--
John

Tom Vizzini

"Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>
> When Tom hears "unconscious" he also hears "all powerful" - that's his
> definition.

I disagree. I am referring to the consistent habit that some people have of
invoking an unconscious mind that is supposed to have superior intellectual
ability.

The idea that there is this unconscious mind the contract thousands of bits
of information per second is pure fantasy. It is a metaphor and nothing
more. In my opinion it is not a very useful metaphor when used as a crutch.

When this thread started it was mentioned that the conscious mind can only
remember seven bits of information, plus or minus two. It was then assumed
that the Almighty unconscious mind began to store all this other information
in a giant warehouse.

It is just untrue. There is no other mind that takes over. It is the same
mind.

I have been doing this stuff for a very long time. The "unconscious mind"
is constantly referenced as being a separate entity. I am not the person
who is doing this. It is just what I am noticing.

Why have learned over the last few years about how the brain works as
educated me as to how the brain actually stores information and how we
experience it on many levels.

One of the things that make the 3-D Mind so powerful is that I have rejected
the idea that this "unconscious mind" as any validity. Using only conscious
processes and direction the 3-D Mind is able to make changes where others
have failed.

Tom


--
Tom Vizzini

Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043



>
> > you can't even see when someone is supporting most of what you say.
>
> That happens at times. How can we work out if we agree if we use some
> words in different ways?
>
> Greg
>

Tom Vizzini

"Ross" <notmyemail@address.com> wrote in message news:BF52541B.17268%
>
> Tom,
>
> I get your points and what you are aiming at, AND......to me....
>
> "Mind" is just a way of talking about different processes, whether
labeled
> conscious or unconscious. To me, "unconscious" would include those
thought
> processes that take place outside of conscious perception, or, as in
dreams,
> absent conscious volition.

To me there is a difference in what we are not consciously perceiving and a
magical unconscious mind that knows all. The way that the unconscious mind
metaphor is used is actually more harmful than good. I have run into
countless people who've decided to turn their lives over to their
unconscious mind. They will ask their unconscious for answers and assume
because the answer came from their unconscious mind that it must be correct.

If this all knowing unconscious mind always had the right answer there would
never be a phobia. There would never be self-destructive behavior. That is
the danger of this "unconscious mind" metaphor. It has been taken literally
and to the extreme.


>
> I doubt very many people consciously create their dreams at night; instead
> the dreams are experienced as being lived or witnessed while being created
> by some other part of the mind. Obviously, then, some other aspect of
> conscious function, other than the normal waking one is in operation, and
it
> correlates to different brain waves than "waking" consciousness; hence
Alpha
> waves, Theta, Beta, etc.

Different states of consciousness do not equate and all knowing unconscious
mind. The two equate to what the ONE MIND can accomplish in a different
states of that one consciousness.


>
> More practically:
>
> It's possible to consciously work on a problem and then have the solution
> appear metaphorically in a dream, reverie or vision, as in Kerkule seeing
> the structure of the benzene molecule in a dream about a snake swallowing
> its tail.

The dreams do not prove that there is an unconscious mind. To me they only
prove that the ONE MIND is at a different level of awareness. This is
mainly due to no outside stimulus. I fully believe there is ways to direct
the ONE MIND to do a specific task. That doesn't mean that there is this a
magical unconscious mind.


>
> Surely then, there ARE unconscious processes that are useful, vital and
> real. Whether there is such a nominalization as an "unconscious mind" is
> another argument. I do believe the unconscious can be used as a means to
> access information that exists outside of the physical body; as in
> Sheldrake's idea of morphogenic fields.

This is a perfect example of the flaw of bleeding in a magical unconscious
mind. Any skill that cannot be explained through conscious direction is
immediately relegated to the magical unconscious mind. The idea of this
all-powerful unconscious mind being able to perceive things that the poor
retarded conscious mind could never track is not useful.


>
> Nothing wrong with calling upon unconscious creative processes to assist
in
> finding creative solutions to challenging situations; artists, writers,
> scientists, poets, etc have been doing it since fugging forever.

It is curious to me that people seem to assume that all of these processes
are generated by the all talented unconscious mind. My opinion now is that
different states are able to access different levels of creativity in the
PHYSICAL BIOLOGICAL brain. You can even use trance to set aside the
recurring neural patterns and access parts of the brain that access the
creative/adaptive parts of the brain.

This is not done by some magical unconscious mind. It is done through a
methodical process.


>
> And personally, I believe that the symbology of the unconscious can be
used
> to tap into the "super-conscious" that exists independent of any
individual
> human existence.

That is more of a religious belief than anything else. If one wants to
believe in a super-consciousness then they are free to use that metaphor to
accomplish anything they want. I don't believe the unconscious mind has
anything to do with tapping into a super-consciousness. I believe that
there are different states, Alpha, Beta, Theta, that allow our consciousness
to access many different things. This is completely different and separate
from any idea of a magical unconscious mind.

Let me say that I understand the metaphor of the unconscious mind and how it
is used to direct the mind's attention to accomplish specific tasks. My
problem is with the idea that it is a real thing and that the poor retarded
conscious mind can accomplish very little other than ordering a big Mac.

Tom


--
Tom Vizzini

Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043

Tom Vizzini

"John" <yuiouio@dfghfgh> wrote in message

> ..and when he hears NLP he also hears bullshit.

This is completely untrue. There are certain people who use the term NLP
and when they use it I hear bullshit.

I studied NLP for seven years. I truly wanted everything I learned to
actually work. The problem is that it didn't. Most of what does work in
NLP has been borrowed from other types of therapies. This because it may be
the first place that you have heard of it does not mean it is the place of
origin.

Tom


--
Tom Vizzini

Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043

Ross

in article yLudnWa-DL2c87DeRVn-vg@adelphia.com, Tom Vizzini at
Tom@essential-skills.com wrote on 9/18/05 6:39 AM:

>
>
>
> To me there is a difference in what we are not consciously perceiving and a
> magical unconscious mind that knows all. The way that the unconscious mind
> metaphor is used is actually more harmful than good. I have run into
> countless people who've decided to turn their lives over to their
> unconscious mind. They will ask their unconscious for answers and assume
> because the answer came from their unconscious mind that it must be correct.


Don't be ridiculous, Tom. Of COURSE their is an all-powerful, unconscious
mind, but there is only ONE of them, and it belongs to...

.............................Ray Gordon!

In fact, you, me and ALL OF USENET are merely projections of Ray's almighty
and all powerful unconscious mind.

Now, I feel(unconsciously) that he is sending BOTH of our imaginary selves
to our IMAGINARY rooms to contemplate in our imaginary imaginations what
awful people he has projected and created us to be.

Consider yourself corrected....UNCONSCIOUSLY!

RJ
93/93









>
> If this all knowing unconscious mind always had the right answer there would
> never be a phobia. There would never be self-destructive behavior. That is
> the danger of this "unconscious mind" metaphor. It has been taken literally
> and to the extreme.
>
>
>>
>> I doubt very many people consciously create their dreams at night; instead
>> the dreams are experienced as being lived or witnessed while being created
>> by some other part of the mind. Obviously, then, some other aspect of
>> conscious function, other than the normal waking one is in operation, and
> it
>> correlates to different brain waves than "waking" consciousness; hence
> Alpha
>> waves, Theta, Beta, etc.
>
> Different states of consciousness do not equate and all knowing unconscious
> mind. The two equate to what the ONE MIND can accomplish in a different
> states of that one consciousness.
>
>
>>
>> More practically:
>>
>> It's possible to consciously work on a problem and then have the solution
>> appear metaphorically in a dream, reverie or vision, as in Kerkule seeing
>> the structure of the benzene molecule in a dream about a snake swallowing
>> its tail.
>
> The dreams do not prove that there is an unconscious mind. To me they only
> prove that the ONE MIND is at a different level of awareness. This is
> mainly due to no outside stimulus. I fully believe there is ways to direct
> the ONE MIND to do a specific task. That doesn't mean that there is this a
> magical unconscious mind.
>
>
>>
>> Surely then, there ARE unconscious processes that are useful, vital and
>> real. Whether there is such a nominalization as an "unconscious mind" is
>> another argument. I do believe the unconscious can be used as a means to
>> access information that exists outside of the physical body; as in
>> Sheldrake's idea of morphogenic fields.
>
> This is a perfect example of the flaw of bleeding in a magical unconscious
> mind. Any skill that cannot be explained through conscious direction is
> immediately relegated to the magical unconscious mind. The idea of this
> all-powerful unconscious mind being able to perceive things that the poor
> retarded conscious mind could never track is not useful.
>
>
>>
>> Nothing wrong with calling upon unconscious creative processes to assist
> in
>> finding creative solutions to challenging situations; artists, writers,
>> scientists, poets, etc have been doing it since fugging forever.
>
> It is curious to me that people seem to assume that all of these processes
> are generated by the all talented unconscious mind. My opinion now is that
> different states are able to access different levels of creativity in the
> PHYSICAL BIOLOGICAL brain. You can even use trance to set aside the
> recurring neural patterns and access parts of the brain that access the
> creative/adaptive parts of the brain.
>
> This is not done by some magical unconscious mind. It is done through a
> methodical process.
>
>
>>
>> And personally, I believe that the symbology of the unconscious can be
> used
>> to tap into the "super-conscious" that exists independent of any
> individual
>> human existence.
>
> That is more of a religious belief than anything else. If one wants to
> believe in a super-consciousness then they are free to use that metaphor to
> accomplish anything they want. I don't believe the unconscious mind has
> anything to do with tapping into a super-consciousness. I believe that
> there are different states, Alpha, Beta, Theta, that allow our consciousness
> to access many different things. This is completely different and separate
> from any idea of a magical unconscious mind.
>
> Let me say that I understand the metaphor of the unconscious mind and how it
> is used to direct the mind's attention to accomplish specific tasks. My
> problem is with the idea that it is a real thing and that the poor retarded
> conscious mind can accomplish very little other than ordering a big Mac.
>
> Tom
>
>
> --
> Tom Vizzini
>
> Real Skills for the Real World
> www.essential-skills.com
> New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
> 3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
>
>
>
>
>

Tom Vizzini

"Ross" <notmyemail@address.com> wrote in message
news:BF52E24D.1727F%notmyemail@address.com...
> in article yLudnWa-DL2c87DeRVn-vg@adelphia.com, Tom Vizzini at
> Tom@essential-skills.com wrote on 9/18/05 6:39 AM:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > To me there is a difference in what we are not consciously perceiving
and a
> > magical unconscious mind that knows all. The way that the unconscious
mind
> > metaphor is used is actually more harmful than good. I have run into
> > countless people who've decided to turn their lives over to their
> > unconscious mind. They will ask their unconscious for answers and
assume
> > because the answer came from their unconscious mind that it must be
correct.
>
>
> Don't be ridiculous, Tom. Of COURSE their is an all-powerful, unconscious
> mind, but there is only ONE of them, and it belongs to...
>
> ............................Ray Gordon!
>
> In fact, you, me and ALL OF USENET are merely projections of Ray's
almighty
> and all powerful unconscious mind.
>
> Now, I feel(unconsciously) that he is sending BOTH of our imaginary
selves
> to our IMAGINARY rooms to contemplate in our imaginary imaginations what
> awful people he has projected and created us to be.
>
> Consider yourself corrected....UNCONSCIOUSLY!


LOL!!!


--
Tom Vizzini

Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043



>
> RJ
> 93/93
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > If this all knowing unconscious mind always had the right answer there
would
> > never be a phobia. There would never be self-destructive behavior.
That is
> > the danger of this "unconscious mind" metaphor. It has been taken
literally
> > and to the extreme.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I doubt very many people consciously create their dreams at night;
instead
> >> the dreams are experienced as being lived or witnessed while being
created
> >> by some other part of the mind. Obviously, then, some other aspect of
> >> conscious function, other than the normal waking one is in operation,
and
> > it
> >> correlates to different brain waves than "waking" consciousness; hence
> > Alpha
> >> waves, Theta, Beta, etc.
> >
> > Different states of consciousness do not equate and all knowing
unconscious
> > mind. The two equate to what the ONE MIND can accomplish in a different
> > states of that one consciousness.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> More practically:
> >>
> >> It's possible to consciously work on a problem and then have the
solution
> >> appear metaphorically in a dream, reverie or vision, as in Kerkule
seeing
> >> the structure of the benzene molecule in a dream about a snake
swallowing
> >> its tail.
> >
> > The dreams do not prove that there is an unconscious mind. To me they
only
> > prove that the ONE MIND is at a different level of awareness. This is
> > mainly due to no outside stimulus. I fully believe there is ways to
direct
> > the ONE MIND to do a specific task. That doesn't mean that there is
this a
> > magical unconscious mind.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Surely then, there ARE unconscious processes that are useful, vital and
> >> real. Whether there is such a nominalization as an "unconscious mind"
is
> >> another argument. I do believe the unconscious can be used as a means
to
> >> access information that exists outside of the physical body; as in
> >> Sheldrake's idea of morphogenic fields.
> >
> > This is a perfect example of the flaw of bleeding in a magical
unconscious
> > mind. Any skill that cannot be explained through conscious direction is
> > immediately relegated to the magical unconscious mind. The idea of this
> > all-powerful unconscious mind being able to perceive things that the
poor
> > retarded conscious mind could never track is not useful.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Nothing wrong with calling upon unconscious creative processes to
assist
> > in
> >> finding creative solutions to challenging situations; artists, writers,
> >> scientists, poets, etc have been doing it since fugging forever.
> >
> > It is curious to me that people seem to assume that all of these
processes
> > are generated by the all talented unconscious mind. My opinion now is
that
> > different states are able to access different levels of creativity in
the
> > PHYSICAL BIOLOGICAL brain. You can even use trance to set aside the
> > recurring neural patterns and access parts of the brain that access the
> > creative/adaptive parts of the brain.
> >
> > This is not done by some magical unconscious mind. It is done through a
> > methodical process.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> And personally, I believe that the symbology of the unconscious can be
> > used
> >> to tap into the "super-conscious" that exists independent of any
> > individual
> >> human existence.
> >
> > That is more of a religious belief than anything else. If one wants to
> > believe in a super-consciousness then they are free to use that metaphor
to
> > accomplish anything they want. I don't believe the unconscious mind has
> > anything to do with tapping into a super-consciousness. I believe that
> > there are different states, Alpha, Beta, Theta, that allow our
consciousness
> > to access many different things. This is completely different and
separate
> > from any idea of a magical unconscious mind.
> >
> > Let me say that I understand the metaphor of the unconscious mind and
how it
> > is used to direct the mind's attention to accomplish specific tasks. My
> > problem is with the idea that it is a real thing and that the poor
retarded
> > conscious mind can accomplish very little other than ordering a big Mac.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tom Vizzini
> >
> > Real Skills for the Real World
> > www.essential-skills.com
> > New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
> > 3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

futureritual

93

Ross wrote:
>
> "Mind" is just a way of talking about different processes, whether labeled
> conscious or unconscious.

Great post, Ross... and I agree with this and will add that all these
levels of mind exist in a sense because we define their existence. It
seems most likely to me that just about everything (and I do mean
EVERYTHING) is mind, or consciousness or whatever you want to call
it... and that even our so-called conscious minds exist purely because
we set boundaries to them (or, rather, are taught to set boundaries
while still very young). In this way one might even argue that there is
no "conscious mind"... It's a matter of frame of reference.

> More practically:
>
> It's possible to consciously work on a problem and then have the solution
> appear metaphorically in a dream, reverie or vision, as in Kerkule seeing
> the structure of the benzene molecule in a dream about a snake swallowing
> its tail.


There are endless examples of this, Coleridge writing "Kubla Kahn"
after an opium vision, Nikola Tesla testing machines unconsciusly,
Francis Crick discovering the double helix in an LSD vision, and on and
on. While these mainly suggest that thought processes can continue
operating on their course outside of consciousness, in the cases of
Kerkule and Crick, for instance, it suggests, perhaps, access to
information well outside normal conscious awareness.


> And personally, I believe that the symbology of the unconscious can be used
> to tap into the "super-conscious" that exists independent of any individual
> human existence.


Absolutely. I think it's an important point to make that the
nominalization "the unconscious mind" might represent a very wide range
of "levels" or "minds" or whatever, some of which are dumb as toast,
others of which are literally "genius."

93 93/93
Phil
http://hawkridgeproductions.com/

Garry Freemyer

I remember someone recommending the book "Blink" and then my doctor
mentioned it because some of the ideas I expressed sounded very similar to
what was said in blink.

I got the book, and people would look at it and say wow, yep, best seller.
One said it turned her thinking completely around.

On page 15, of the book, which I can remember well, because it seems that my
memory problems are shrinking, but it was happening so slowly, I didn't pick
up on it.

Back to the topic. On that page, about half way down, it defines the
subconscious as a kind of super computer on earlier pages, where it can do
some quite sophisticated stuff in pattern recognition for one thing, but on
this page, it actually mentions that this unconscious is not infallible, and
can mislead as well as lead well and that it can often mislead due to other
desires and so it can in effect be ignored or even fail to warn.

The example they used was when the Getty museum bought what they thought was
an extremely valuable Grecian statue and how they had done a lot of
investigation to make sure that the statue was what it was claimed to be.
Note how it says they started out to try to prove it to be true. After
paying for it, a number of folks would walk up to the statue and experience
feelings of dismay, shock, outrage, and one commented. "That's too bad that
they bought this thing."

These weren't necessarily highly esteemed experts on Grecian artifacts, but
these folks where able to identify the statue as a fake almost immediately.

Now, the officers of the museum did their investigation on a different
tack - that to try to find evidence of fakery and flaws in the documentation
and they found this proof of fakery.

Why was it that these curators were so easily bilked after extensive
research while others identified it as a fake two seconds?

It was because the buyer was in love with the idea of having a genuine rare
masterpiece, and the others, were equally invested in believing this fake to
be a genuine article because they spent money and did not want to feel
embarrassed.

So, in this book, it showed in abject terms, how motivations can cause this
super-computer to fail to warn, or even to lie, in accord to the desires of
the person much to their grief.

I guess its kind of like someone not waking a person up who is in a burning
building because they don't wish to disturb their sleep.

So, it seems, that at this book supports the idea of an all-knowing
unconscious mind is untrue.

To Greg and others ...

Of course, I know if Greg is reading, I should, yep, I know, I read that you
don't view it as all wise either. Probably a lot seem to feel the same.

As for the confusion, sometimes when you have so many folks trumpeting the
pretty picture of an all wise source of inner wisdom in one's ears for so
long one's ears can be left ringing so badly, it might become just a bit
more difficult to notice the folks that aren't trumpeting the same old
pretty fables.

"Tom Vizzini" <Tom@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:BvadndD98LMp9LDeRVn-jg@adelphia.com...
>
> "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>>
>> When Tom hears "unconscious" he also hears "all powerful" - that's his
>> definition.
>
> I disagree. I am referring to the consistent habit that some people have
> of
> invoking an unconscious mind that is supposed to have superior
> intellectual
> ability.
>
> The idea that there is this unconscious mind the contract thousands of
> bits
> of information per second is pure fantasy. It is a metaphor and nothing
> more. In my opinion it is not a very useful metaphor when used as a
> crutch.
>
> When this thread started it was mentioned that the conscious mind can only
> remember seven bits of information, plus or minus two. It was then
> assumed
> that the Almighty unconscious mind began to store all this other
> information
> in a giant warehouse.
>
> It is just untrue. There is no other mind that takes over. It is the
> same
> mind.
>
> I have been doing this stuff for a very long time. The "unconscious mind"
> is constantly referenced as being a separate entity. I am not the person
> who is doing this. It is just what I am noticing.
>
> Why have learned over the last few years about how the brain works as
> educated me as to how the brain actually stores information and how we
> experience it on many levels.
>
> One of the things that make the 3-D Mind so powerful is that I have
> rejected
> the idea that this "unconscious mind" as any validity. Using only
> conscious
> processes and direction the 3-D Mind is able to make changes where others
> have failed.
>
> Tom
>
>
> --
> Tom Vizzini
>
> Real Skills for the Real World
> www.essential-skills.com
> New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
> 3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
>
>
>
>>
>> > you can't even see when someone is supporting most of what you say.
>>
>> That happens at times. How can we work out if we agree if we use some
>> words in different ways?
>>
>> Greg
>>
>
>
>

Garry Freemyer

Hehe, I have turned to my unconscious mind for answers, however, I've
rejected a lot of stupid answers. An answer I get, might be just because
it's something I read recently, it might well be a wrong answer.

If the answer sounds good, makes sense, I might try it.

I may ask for the answers from within, but I don't blindly trust any answers
that come my way.

"Tom Vizzini" <Tom@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:yLudnWa-DL2c87DeRVn-vg@adelphia.com...
>
> "Ross" <notmyemail@address.com> wrote in message news:BF52541B.17268%
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> I get your points and what you are aiming at, AND......to me....
>>
>> "Mind" is just a way of talking about different processes, whether
> labeled
>> conscious or unconscious. To me, "unconscious" would include those
> thought
>> processes that take place outside of conscious perception, or, as in
> dreams,
>> absent conscious volition.
>
> To me there is a difference in what we are not consciously perceiving and
> a
> magical unconscious mind that knows all. The way that the unconscious
> mind
> metaphor is used is actually more harmful than good. I have run into
> countless people who've decided to turn their lives over to their
> unconscious mind. They will ask their unconscious for answers and assume
> because the answer came from their unconscious mind that it must be
> correct.
>
> If this all knowing unconscious mind always had the right answer there
> would
> never be a phobia. There would never be self-destructive behavior. That
> is
> the danger of this "unconscious mind" metaphor. It has been taken
> literally
> and to the extreme.
>
>
>>
>> I doubt very many people consciously create their dreams at night;
>> instead
>> the dreams are experienced as being lived or witnessed while being
>> created
>> by some other part of the mind. Obviously, then, some other aspect of
>> conscious function, other than the normal waking one is in operation, and
> it
>> correlates to different brain waves than "waking" consciousness; hence
> Alpha
>> waves, Theta, Beta, etc.
>
> Different states of consciousness do not equate and all knowing
> unconscious
> mind. The two equate to what the ONE MIND can accomplish in a different
> states of that one consciousness.
>
>
>>
>> More practically:
>>
>> It's possible to consciously work on a problem and then have the solution
>> appear metaphorically in a dream, reverie or vision, as in Kerkule seeing
>> the structure of the benzene molecule in a dream about a snake swallowing
>> its tail.
>
> The dreams do not prove that there is an unconscious mind. To me they
> only
> prove that the ONE MIND is at a different level of awareness. This is
> mainly due to no outside stimulus. I fully believe there is ways to
> direct
> the ONE MIND to do a specific task. That doesn't mean that there is this
> a
> magical unconscious mind.
>
>
>>
>> Surely then, there ARE unconscious processes that are useful, vital and
>> real. Whether there is such a nominalization as an "unconscious mind" is
>> another argument. I do believe the unconscious can be used as a means to
>> access information that exists outside of the physical body; as in
>> Sheldrake's idea of morphogenic fields.
>
> This is a perfect example of the flaw of bleeding in a magical unconscious
> mind. Any skill that cannot be explained through conscious direction is
> immediately relegated to the magical unconscious mind. The idea of this
> all-powerful unconscious mind being able to perceive things that the poor
> retarded conscious mind could never track is not useful.
>
>
>>
>> Nothing wrong with calling upon unconscious creative processes to assist
> in
>> finding creative solutions to challenging situations; artists, writers,
>> scientists, poets, etc have been doing it since fugging forever.
>
> It is curious to me that people seem to assume that all of these processes
> are generated by the all talented unconscious mind. My opinion now is
> that
> different states are able to access different levels of creativity in the
> PHYSICAL BIOLOGICAL brain. You can even use trance to set aside the
> recurring neural patterns and access parts of the brain that access the
> creative/adaptive parts of the brain.
>
> This is not done by some magical unconscious mind. It is done through a
> methodical process.
>
>
>>
>> And personally, I believe that the symbology of the unconscious can be
> used
>> to tap into the "super-conscious" that exists independent of any
> individual
>> human existence.
>
> That is more of a religious belief than anything else. If one wants to
> believe in a super-consciousness then they are free to use that metaphor
> to
> accomplish anything they want. I don't believe the unconscious mind has
> anything to do with tapping into a super-consciousness. I believe that
> there are different states, Alpha, Beta, Theta, that allow our
> consciousness
> to access many different things. This is completely different and
> separate
> from any idea of a magical unconscious mind.
>
> Let me say that I understand the metaphor of the unconscious mind and how
> it
> is used to direct the mind's attention to accomplish specific tasks. My
> problem is with the idea that it is a real thing and that the poor
> retarded
> conscious mind can accomplish very little other than ordering a big Mac.
>
> Tom
>
>
> --
> Tom Vizzini
>
> Real Skills for the Real World
> www.essential-skills.com
> New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
> 3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
>
>
>
>
>

UnKaH

>I disagree. I am referring to the consistent habit that some >people have of invoking an unconscious mind that is supposed >to have superior intellectual ability.

If there was an unconscious mind, and it was all powerful and all
knowing like people claim, then why do people have problems?
Wouldn't an all powerful unconscious mine correct that automatically?
Why do people act as stupid as they do sometimes? Wouldn't their all
powerful mind say, Hey stop that stupid?
Why do people rob and rape and lie and do all the things they should
know not to do.

An all powerful and all knowing unconscious mind is a very flawed
metaphor or model.