Micawber

I was wondering how I could get started using NLP to help "give myself
more options to a given situation which my concious mind feels troubled
with"? I have already read "Frogs into Princes" and was wondering what
would be a good next step.

Thanks

Michael Perez

Hi,

Commercial products aside, I'd look for a local practitioner's group in
your area. Admission will either be free or cheap. NLP is best
learned by experiencing and then doing it yourself and that can be a
great way to get your feet wet. I've yet to meet an NLP practitioner
that will say that you can really learn and put NLP into practise based
on books, CDs or videos alone. NLP is really learned in the doing.
Practitioner groups also tend to have NLP trainers as guest speakers,
so you can get an idea of what they can offer you if you decide to move
ahead.

For other info, pop by your local library and see what they have
available. Tapes, CDs and videos can be invaluable learning tools for
NLP once you've actually started experiencing it.

Once you have an idea of the instructor or trainers style and
competence, you can decide if there's enough of a fit to actually spend
money on them or their program.

To sum up, if I were you, I'd hold off on spending much money until
you've had enough of a personal experience of it to know you want to
invest further. For right now, consider instead investing time and
effort, you won't regret it.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Michael Perez

Hi Nick,

As you stated in your previous post, I thought you were quite clear
that you were offering free MP3s via your website. Therefore, I though
it would be self evident that I was not referring to you in my caution
against making an initial outlay of cash when just getting started in
NLP.

I have used your site myself and it is a worthwhile resource,
especially for getting a chance to listen to higher profile trainers
that you might want to train with at some point.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Nick Kemp

Yes it does, thanks!
I also put together an mp3 on the same site discussing choosing NLP
trainings and what are IMO key questions to ask, some of which have
already been covered in this thread. I know from dealing with enquiries
from the public that often people can be quite confused by the variety
of information out there on NLP.

I suggest wherever possible that people speak to the trainer running
the event and satisfy themselves that the group size, training style
and price suits their needs.

Regards

Nick Kemp
www.nickkemp.com

phill_coxon

> I get easily discouraged when a task starts to get a bit rough, and I
> at times get shy and nervous in social situations because I think of
> what others will think about me. I know I probably should make it more
> specific and eliminate words like shy and nervous, but it is the best
> way I can describe it at the moment

Ok. All this means is that you have one or more beleifs about yourself
that cause you to feel bad under these circumstances. Does that make
sense?

So tell me - what kind of person gets shy and nervous in social
situations and worrys about what others think of them?

Someone who is xxx.

Tell me what xxx is in just one or two words.

Another way to ask the question is:

What do you have to believe about yourself in order to be shy and
nervous in social situations?

I am xxx. (again xxx is at most one or two words)

By identifying the belief we get straight to the cause rather than
getting caught up in the symptoms - shyness, nervousness etc.

Micawber

disappointed and frusturated, more so the former

Micawber

when I read it, it stuck out instantly, I am vulnerable

phill_coxon

> when I read it, it stuck out instantly, I am vulnerable

Bingo. Well done.

So if you were no longer vulnerable would you still be nervous and shy
in social situations?

This is a key distinction. So many therapies (lots of NLP included)
spend all their time on the nervousness and shyness without every
getting to the belief that generates them.

The next step is to change that belief. This removes the stimulus
response to being vulnerability - i.e.: the associated bad feelings
will no longer be there which results in different behaviour.

I highly recommend the 3D Mind process for this.

You can buy the tapes for $70 and learn how to do the process yourself.
When you buy the tapes you also get access to the private 3D Mind
mailing list (restricted to 3D Mind owners) where you get a huge amount
of assistance and encouragement from others to work through the process
to get the results you want. It's one of the best self supporting
online communities I've ever seen.

Another option is to work with a certified 3D MInd practitioner -
someone who has been trained to work with clients. You can ask on the
free Essential Skills mailing list and you may find someone who will
take you through it for free or for a reasonable fee.

Personally, I think it's a good idea to have your own copy and learn
the process yourself. Then you can use it to make many other changes
in your own life without being reliant on others.

Let me know if that make sense. You're more than welcome to email me
directly if you'd like to know more.

Michael Perez

Hi Phil,

>This is a key distinction. So many therapies (lots of NLP included)
>spend all their time on the nervousness and shyness without every
>getting to the belief that generates them.

Just wanted to point out that beliefs, their elicitation and changing
them in the context of ecology are a core part of NLP. This dates back
to the initial NLP works (Structure of Magic II) and has been greatly
expanded on since. Beliefs and changing them are a part of the core
curriculum of the very first stage of practitioner certification and
are expanded on in each subsequent level.

By 'lots of NLP' I take it that you mean 'lots of NLP *techniques*'
focus on feelings rather than the beliefs that generate them. And of
course, this is true. Techniques are tools. And using the plumbing
analogy, many plumbing problems are caused by loose joints and many
tools in the plumber's kit do not tighten joints. And yes, using the
wrong tool to tighten joints does not work well, or perhaps at all.
But the plumber has an adjustable wrench or two, and for those loose
joints, that's all that's needed. The other tools are for other
things. They all have their use in context.

It is also important to remember that even belief change is no magic
bullet if the problem lies at a deeper level of values or identity.
Again, NLP deals with these factors as well, as part of it's core
competencies.

One could make the argument that some practitioners do not address
beliefs in doing change work with clients. However some is not all and
no field should be judged by those who do not practise it properly. In
every field, there are those who do things well and those who do them
badly. One group always outnumbers the other, I will leave it as an
exercise to the reader to determine which group is which.
Elicitation and changing beliefs are and should be core competencies
for any student of NLP.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Tom Vizzini

"Michael Perez" <map002ster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141302965.826903.163140@z34g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...

> Just wanted to point out that beliefs, their elicitation and changing
> them in the context of ecology are a core part of NLP. This dates back
> to the initial NLP works (Structure of Magic II) and has been greatly
> expanded on since. Beliefs and changing them are a part of the core
> curriculum of the very first stage of practitioner certification and
> are expanded on in each subsequent level.

OK stop right there. With all due respect. Phil is very well educated about
NLP. He spent $30,000 learning it and hiring "experts". So he knows NLP.

He also knows the 3D mind. Until you know both you have no basis for
comparison.

>
> It is also important to remember that even belief change is no magic
> bullet if the problem lies at a deeper level of values or identity.
> Again, NLP deals with these factors as well, as part of it's core
> competencies.

Here is a basic difference. With the 3D Mind there are no levels of
identity. It is not necessary. There is no 'core'. That is also not
necessary.

What we are talking about are 2 radically different processes. You only know
one of them yet are assuming that they are both the same.

Have fun

Tom


--
Tom Vizzini

Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043

phill_coxon

> Just wanted to point out that beliefs, their elicitation and changing
> them in the context of ecology are a core part of NLP. This dates back
> to the initial NLP works (Structure of Magic II) and has been greatly
> expanded on since. Beliefs and changing them are a part of the core
> curriculum of the very first stage of practitioner certification and
> are expanded on in each subsequent level.

Which is my point exactly. For something that is supposed to be part
of the "core" curriculum, have you noticed how many NLP practitioners
are absolutely unable to demonstrate any measurable results whatsoever?
Forget about something as challenging as changing beliefs, I'm
thinking about simple stuff like rapport, state elicitations,
anchoring, submodality changes.

A very big part of the problem seems to be that many NLP practitioner
trainings simply give away certificates. If you turn up, you get a
certificate. Doesn't matter if you have actually learnt to apply any
skills or not.

So then you get all these "qualified practitioners" running around
unable to do what they claim. They may have an understanding of the
theory, but no real skill. They are still happy to take people's money
though and lay any failure to achieve results back on the client.

Yes, there are some very good NLP practitioners out there, but they are
few and far between in my own experience.

> By 'lots of NLP' I take it that you mean 'lots of NLP *techniques*'
> focus on feelings rather than the beliefs that generate them.

By lots of NLP I mean I've tried lots of NLP. I bought books, audio
tapes, CDs, DVDS and videos from the "best" in the industry. I
attended NLP trainings. I worked one on one with a number of NLP
practitioners, trainers and "master trainers". My company paid $15,000
to fly one of Richard Bandler's "hand picked master trainers" from the
USA to New Zealand for a week.

90% of all this was a complete waste of time. Books and DVDs that tell
a bunch of amusing stories and yet fail to provide any specific step by
step skills that someone can learn and apply.

DVDs, CDs and videos that claim to teach by "installatation". Somehow
just by listening you will have new skills "installed" even though you
won't have any conscious awareness of what these new skills are, or how
to use them, suddently your life will be better. Somehow. At some
point.

Practitioners and trainers that put on a good show, told some fun
stories and yet were unable to provide any measurable results at the
end of the day. When I couldn't produce a result with the skills they
were teaching I was told things like "it's your fault" or "you are
trying, but you are not doing" (what!!?) or "pay another $2500 for the
next seminar and you'll get it then".

Funny thing is that when I challenged them they were extremely
reluctant to prove that they could produce the result themselves

So, you can understand that I've had a heap of NLP training, much of it
extremely disappointing, some of it very questionnable in terms of
whether it does anything at all.

For an industry that promises techniques and skills for amazing change,
there is very little accountability and very little focus on measurable
results.

That's why I like the Essential Skills products - every one of them is
designed to achieve very measurable results with very clear, step by
step instructions. Their focus is not on theory - they teach very
practical day to day skills that anyone can use. Here is exactly what
to do and the specific results you should achieve at this step. Now
that you have that step producing a measurable result in the real world
(not just in a seminar environment) move onto the next step to improve
your skill level.

If someone is going to work with a NLP practitioner, then I recommend
they ask some questions to determine just how good that practitioner
is.

* Do you offer a results, performance of money back guarantee?

* Are you able to demonstrate some real world skills with measurable
results rather than just discus theory?

* Can I talk to some of your previous clients about the work you've
done with them and the measurable results they've achieved since?

These are also good questions to ask any NLP training organisaton
before you spend a bunch of money learning from them.

Michael Perez

Hi Tom,

>OK stop right there.

Sure.

>With all due respect. Phil is very well educated about NLP.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I am well educated in many things
and still get a point or two wrong on occasion. If I do it in public,
I hope to get a reasonable correction. If it's valid, I'll acknowledge
it. If it's a difference of opinion I might debate it. If I think
it's wrong, I'll challenge it. I hope that seems fair to you,.

>He spent $30,000 learning it and hiring "experts". So he knows NLP.

That's a lot of money. For the record, money spent doesn't have a
one-to-one correlation with skills acquired. I've met a few Harvard
MBAs in my time... But again, I don't dispute Phil's education or
skills set.

>He also knows the 3D mind. Until you know both you have no basis for
>comparison.

I wasn't making a comparison to the 3D mind. This is an NLP discussion
group. If I wanted to discuss the 3D Mind, there are forums on which I
could discuss it and remain on topic.

Phil made a point about NLP. He said, 'So many therapies (lots of NLP
included) spend all their time on the nervousness and shyness without
every getting to the belief that generates them.' I replied to the
effect that NLP does indeed deal with belief and has since it's
inception. In disagreeing with and offering to correct that one point,
I in no way intended to invalidate the rest of his comment.

By the way, I will also stipulate that I also do not mean to imply that
NLP is better or worse than any other method(s) in eliciting or
changing beliefs. But it does deal with them.

>Here is a basic difference. With the 3D Mind there are no levels of
>identity. It is not necessary. There is no 'core'. That is also not
>necessary.

I'm sure that's very interesting. However, I was not commenting on or
referring to the 3D Mind.

Also, to clarify, I used the word 'core' in the context of central
teachings (of NLP), not with regard to the 'core' of an individual.

I understand that in the 3D mind concept, there is no need for levels
of identity. In NLP, Identity is a level. I've never read of multiple
levels of identity being a tenant of NLP, but I'm not sure which work
you're referencing here.

>What we are talking about are 2 radically different processes. You only know
>one of them yet are assuming that they are both the same.

Again, I was not commenting on or referring to the 3D Mind. I hope
that clarifies my communication.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Michael Perez

Hi Phil,

>Which is my point exactly. For something that is supposed to be part
>of the "core" curriculum, have you noticed how many NLP practitioners
>are absolutely unable to demonstrate any measurable results whatsoever?
> Forget about something as challenging as changing beliefs, I'm
>thinking about simple stuff like rapport, state elicitations,
>anchoring, submodality changes.

Well, with regard to the skill set of practitioners, I fall back on the
old canard, '90% of everything is shit.' It's a belief system that's
worked well for me.

>A very big part of the problem seems to be that many NLP practitioner
>trainings simply give away certificates. If you turn up, you get a
>certificate. Doesn't matter if you have actually learnt to apply any
>skills or not.

Well, not all people going to NLP trainings are intending to do
changework or therapy. But, for those who are pursuing it in a
therapeutic arena, I agree. In my opinion, there should be more
rigorous testing, followed by observed case studies and analysis. But
that's me blissing out into Utopia again...

>So then you get all these "qualified practitioners" running around
>unable to do what they claim. They may have an understanding of the
>theory, but no real skill. They are still happy to take people's money
>though and lay any failure to achieve results back on the client.

There are many people using therapeutic or changework NLP who 'charge
by the change'. In fact, it's so common as to be a phrase in the NLP
community. You can also find money back guarantees. I would suggest
to anyone seeking to find a practitioner to work with look for these as
a part of their offerings. Caviat Emptor.

<SNIP some bad experiences and a lot of cash>

Thanks for clarifying your communication.

>Yes, there are some very good NLP practitioners out there, but they are
>few and far between in my own experience.

Agreed. Reference my 90% rule above.

>So, you can understand that I've had a heap of NLP training, much of it
>extremely disappointing, some of it very questionnable in terms of
>whether it does anything at all.

Hmmm... Did you really want training or changework? You know, one of
my biggest peeves in NLP is the idea that everyone who has a problem
needs training. If I got cancer, should I have to learn to perform
surgery?

Anyway, without regard to what you wanted for the moment, I'd certainly
sad to see what you went through and how much money you spent in good
faith that was, in the end, wasted.

>For an industry that promises techniques and skills for amazing change,
>there is very little accountability and very little focus on measurable
>results.

I agree. Again, see 90% rule above.

<SNIP some non NLP related comment>

Sorry, don't know the Essential Skills product, so I can't comment on
it.

If someone is going to work with a NLP practitioner, then I recommend
they ask some questions to determine just how good that practitioner
is.

<SNIP some good common sense questions>

Again sir, you and I are in 100% agreement on this point.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Michael Perez

>This is an NLP newgroup? <grin>

Well, that's what it says at the top of the page, anyway...

Be Well,

Michael Perez

phill_coxon

> You can also find money back guarantees. I would suggest
>to anyone seeking to find a practitioner to work with look for these as
>a part of their offerings.

Michael It's great to hear that some practioners are now offering
guarantees.

> Hmmm... Did you really want training or changework? You know, one of
> my biggest peeves in NLP is the idea that everyone who has a problem
> needs training. If I got cancer, should I have to learn to perform
> surgery?

I started off just wanting changework, but nobody I went to could
provide that. So from there I went into the training to learn to do it
for myself, which turned out to be almost as disappointing.

I agree with you - many people just want help to change. They don't
actually want or need to learn any NLP themselves.

Thanks,

Phill

Michael Perez

Hi Phil,

phill_coxon wrote:
> > You can also find money back guarantees. I would suggest
> >to anyone seeking to find a practitioner to work with look for these as
> >a part of their offerings.
>
> Michael It's great to hear that some practioners are now offering
> guarantees.

Without them, you're getting a pig in a poke, to decend to my Southern
North American roots for a moment..

> I started off just wanting changework, but nobody I went to could
> provide that. So from there I went into the training to learn to do it
> for myself, which turned out to be almost as disappointing.
>
> I agree with you - many people just want help to change. They don't
> actually want or need to learn any NLP themselves.

Amen.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Tom Vizzini

"Michael Perez" <map002ster@gmail.com> wrote in message ,
>
> Again, I was not commenting on or referring to the 3D Mind. I hope
> that clarifies my communication.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Thanks for clarifying Micheal. I totally inderstand now

Have fun

Tom